Hansard

The Convener Con

Agenda item 2 is consideration of the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill. I am pleased to welcome our first panel of witnesses: Tom Stainer, chief executive of the Ca...

Alison Harris (Central Scotland) (Con) Con

Good morning. Does the existing voluntary code protect the rights of tied tenants? I am happy to take answers from whoever feels most strongly about that.

Tom Stainer (Campaign for Real Ale)

Good morning and thanks for the opportunity to speak to you. It is important to understand that the system in Scotland is not regulated by legislation. That...

Greg Mulholland (British Pub Confederation)

Thank you for inviting us and for fitting in this important session. Put simply, the voluntary code in Scotland, much like the one in England and Wales, was ...

The Convener Con

Chris Wright and Paul Waterson also wish to comment. As the question was our introductory question, I will allow you all to speak.

Chris Wright (Pubs Advisory Service Limited)

Good morning and thank you, convener. The voluntary code that has been in operation has been proved not to tackle important issues relating to unfairness, es...

Paul Waterson (Scottish Licensed Trade Association)

On a point of detail, I note that the pub code in Scotland is now governed by the Pub Governing Body. As you probably know, the pub code was introduced in Ju...

The Convener Con

Alison, do you want to follow that up?

Alison Harris Con

No. I am happy with the responses, convener.

Gordon MacDonald (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) SNP

I have a question about what Paul Waterson said about the voluntary code. It is concerning that you did not find out about that until October 2019 and that t...

Paul Waterson

We have tried to co-ordinate people responding to different things as much as we can. The biggest problem that we have is that tenants are genuinely concerne...

The Convener Con

I will bring in Chris Wright and Greg Mulholland quickly, as it is an important issue.

Chris Wright

I agree with Paul Waterson, but I also want to ask whether the 10 people who are against the bill are actually tied tenants. I saw an article in a Scottish f...

Greg Mulholland

I absolutely understand why Gordon MacDonald asked his question. One reason that we have found for not getting responses is that the past four months or so h...

The Convener Con

Tom Stainer also wants to comment. We are running over our time for this question, but it concerns a key issue, so I will bring him in.

Tom Stainer

In our 2014 survey of 200 tied tenants, 99 per cent felt that the Scottish Government needed to act to ensure that Scottish licensees were afforded the same ...

The Convener Con

Thank you, Tom. We have run over time on that by quite a lot, but I think that that has set the scene with regard to why the witnesses feel that we need a bi...

Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) SNP

Thank you, convener. On investment in pubs, the committee has heard that one impact of the bill might be that pub tenants increase investment in the pubs tha...

Jamie Delap (Society of Independent Brewers)

Thank you for inviting us to be a part of the forum to discuss the bill. Broadly speaking, at the Society of Independent Brewers, our members are suppliers t...

Colin Beattie SNP

How is that going to happen?

Jamie Delap

As I said, being totally honest about our limitations, we do not run pubs. Where that investment would come from is not an area where we have direct expertis...

The Convener Con

We have several witnesses who, presumably, can give some answers on that. Greg Mulholland, Tom Stainer and Chris Wright might want to come in.

Greg Mulholland

It is a key question, and it is one that the pub companies and the trade association, the Scottish BBPA, will always trot out as a reason why the tied model ...

Colin Beattie SNP

How does it work if they do not own the asset and they are making significant investments in the asset? Surely they will limit their investment to the terms ...

Greg Mulholland

It is a model that balances risk and reward, or it is supposed to balance risk and reward. That is the point, and it is the point of the Tied Pubs (Scotland)...

The Convener Con

Tom Stainer wants to come in. Please be brief, Tom.

Tom Stainer

I will do my best. To build on what Greg Mulholland has just said and to give you some perspective, in the survey that we did of 200 tied tenants, 54 per cen...

Chris Wright

One of the so-called benefits of being tied is access to capital investment. Most pub companies—including the largest one in the United Kingdom, Enterprise I...

The Convener Con

Thank you. Finally on this question, I will bring in Paul Waterson.

Paul Waterson

It is worth illustrating the difference in the prices that tied pubs are paying. A keg of beer could be anywhere from £35 and £40 dearer for a tied tenant to...