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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 12 March 2020

12 Mar 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Animals and Wildlife (Penalties, Protections and Powers) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Scottish Labour robustly welcomes heavier sentences—of up to five years in prison and unlimited fines—for serious animal and wildlife crimes. We are supportive of all the recommendations of the ECCLR Committee, of which I am a member. I note for the record that its report was agreed unanimously. We agree with the general principles of the bill, and Scottish Labour recognises animal sentience.

As our convener, Gillian Martin, highlighted, there is strong public interest in ensuring the protection of animals and wildlife. I thank the minister for her response to the committee’s recommendations, which was received in reasonable time to consider—which was most welcome.

Although we recognise the complexities of some of the issues, my colleague Colin Smyth and I will today highlight parts of the bill on which it is our view that the Scottish Government’s response is somewhat disappointing.

As our convener has already outlined, in relation to the destruction of habitats:

“The Committee recommends that the Scottish Government reconsiders its approach to ensure enhanced protections are extended to resting places and breeding sites therefore sentencing can reflect where crimes in effect have equivalent outcomes i.e. in terms of harm to the animal.”

In that respect, the minister’s response is disappointing in relation to badger setts and other habitats, and I would ask her to reconsider it before stage 2. As I understand it, that relates to the law—to legislation—and not to sentencing guidelines. The use of illegal pesticides also does not seem to carry a sentence, although it is likely that would act as a deterrent. The minister’s response to the committee on that is also disappointing.

My colleague Colin Smyth will cover other offences that we agree should be considered as serious crimes.

In January, I attended a meeting organised by Fisheries Management Scotland and Scottish Land & Estates at which there was wide recognition that Atlantic salmon are reaching crisis point and that salmon conservation should become a national priority. Fisheries Management Scotland has indicated its concern that some of the offences in the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 2003 are not included in the bill, despite fish crime being included in the wildlife crime penalties review group, which was led by Professor Poustie and which reported in November 2015. I ask the minister to confirm what action the Scottish Government intends to take to ensure that our iconic salmon and freshwater fish are better protected and that penalties are commensurate with the potential for damage to those species and to the habitats on which they depend.

Sadly, there have been few prosecutions and convictions for vicarious liability. Some would argue that the introduction of vicarious liability has raised awareness of owner responsibility higher up the agendas of owners. However, the committee has called for

“increased transparency around Crown Office decision-making”,

which in our view is in the public interest. In response to our recommendation that

“the Committee would welcome the concept of vicarious liability being extended to further wildlife offences”,

the minister is interested in hearing what other crimes could be considered. I welcome that, and I therefore ask that the crimes listed could be the same as those that any alleged perpetrator has committed, on the basis of evidence.

I turn to the detection of wildlife crime. The committee argued that we should

“enhance detection and prosecution by expanding the powers of the SSPCA ... as an approach to better resourcing wildlife crime enforcement.”

We are all keenly aware that such crimes happen in remote and hard-to-reach areas of the country and we know only too well that resources are stretched. The combination of poor weather and delayed forensic examination at potential crime sites can compromise prosecution. The Scottish Government argues that the bill should not be delayed to enable further consultation on the extension of those powers.

I recognise that there are complex issues to clarify, but I understand that the SSPCA is working with ministers, officials and Police Scotland to find a suitable solution away from the bill. As Finlay Carson highlighted, the SSPCA has said:

“Now is the right time to establish a taskforce to review enforcement when it comes to tackling wildlife crime in Scotland and allow for the potential of extension of wildlife powers to be discussed in more detail. We believe this group could be established within the next three months.”

The issue was live in the previous session of Parliament, and Scottish Labour asks for a resolution in the current one.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a stage 1 debate on motion S5M-21200, in the name of Mairi Gougeon, on the Animals and Wildlife (Penalties, Protections and Powe...
The Minister for Rural Affairs and the Natural Environment (Mairi Gougeon) SNP
I am delighted to present the Animals and Wildlife (Penalties, Protections and Powers) (Scotland) Bill to the chamber and to introduce these important propos...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the bill and the Scottish Government’s action to give enhanced protection from harm to animals and wildlife. The minister mentioned farm animals. ...
Mairi Gougeon SNP
I thank Emma Harper for her intervention and congratulate her on all the work that she has done on tackling that important issue. I am happy to commit to mee...
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Green
Will the Government introduce regulations on performance animals in the current session of Parliament?
Mairi Gougeon SNP
I will look at that specific issue and will get back to the member on it. We also intend the new regulations to give effect to Lucy’s law—a measure to preve...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I invite Gillian Martin to speak on behalf of the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee. 15:03
Gillian Martin (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) SNP
On behalf of my colleagues on the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee, I open by saying that we welcome the bill and support its aim to inc...
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
I am pleased to lead the debate for the Scottish Conservatives, given that I am a member of the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee, which ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
As the member said, that is an excellent provision, which follows a huge campaign led by PC Wardell and so many others, with more than 56,000 signatures on m...
Finlay Carson Con
I thank the member for that intervention. I agree, and we look forward to stage 2, when we will make sure that the bill fulfils everybody’s expectations of p...
Claudia Beamish (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Scottish Labour robustly welcomes heavier sentences—of up to five years in prison and unlimited fines—for serious animal and wildlife crimes. We are supporti...
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
On the issue of enforcement, the bill proposes allowing animals to be rehomed without a court order, but does Claudia Beamish agree that one positive measure...
Claudia Beamish Lab
I absolutely agree. The SSPCA has highlighted that animals can have to wait for a decision on their fate for weeks, months or sometimes years, so that is of ...
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Green
I welcome the introduction of the bill to Parliament. The Greens will of course back its general principles at stage 1. As the convener of the Environment, C...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
What evidence did the committee see that empathy training has any impact? The evidence seemed to be ambiguous.
Mark Ruskell Green
That is the nature of the chicken-and-egg scenario that we are in. We have been unable to roll out empathy training in relation to animal cruelty despite the...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I am pleased to take part in this debate on the Animals and Wildlife (Penalties, Protections and Powers) (Scotland) Bill on behalf of the Scottish Liberal De...
Claudia Beamish Lab
Will the member accept an intervention?
Liam McArthur LD
Do I have time to take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Oh, why not?
Claudia Beamish Lab
Could the member explain why he is uneasy about the alteration of powers, especially in view of what Mark Ruskell said and of the fact that the SSPCA has sai...
Liam McArthur LD
Claudia Beamish raises a legitimate question. I sympathise with some of the anomalies that Mark Ruskell has outlined, but I recall from the debates that we h...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. Please keep speeches to six minutes. I have a tiny bit of time in hand, but do not go overboard. 15:43
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased that the Animals and Wildlife (Penalties, Protections and Powers) (Scotland) Bill has been brought to the chamber. I thank OneKind, Battersea Do...
Maurice Golden (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I have spent several years campaigning to improve animal welfare in Scotland, and there is much to welcome in the Animals and Wildlife (Penalties, Protection...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I have a wee bit more time in hand now. If any members would like to offer or take interventions, I can allow time for that. 15:53
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I declare an interest, as I am a member of the League Against Cruel Sports, the deputy convener of the cross-party group on animal welfare and Scottish Envir...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the bill and the stage 1 report by our colleagues in the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee. I thought that the report was extre...
Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Con
I thank the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee and its convener for all their hard work in putting together the recommendations that are s...