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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 05 February 2020

05 Feb 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

This has been an interesting journey. It is fair to say that what looked like a fairly uncontroversial bill has proved to be anything but. However, I want to start my closing remarks by expressing disappointment. The Scottish Conservatives should have been able to support this bill, which is largely sensible. Any issues that we had could have been ironed out.

Our big concern, the politically motivated assault on the independent schools sector, could have been smoothed over. We offered compromise, but we were talking to a brick wall. Kate Forbes got her own way on the matter, but she should not be happy, because treating one part of the charitable sector differently from the rest has been attacked by the charity regulator and I can imagine the prospect of a legal challenge.

My party should have been able to back this bill, but Ms Forbes was not for moving. I suspect that that position comes not from her but from higher up; it could maybe even come from the First Minister.

The upshot of hitting charities with bigger bills is that some will close. I am convinced that some smaller schools will not survive because of what Parliament is about to do. I hope that Hamilton college in my region will. Perhaps the minister can advise what should happen to the pupils and the building that they are in should it not survive. I could see it becoming a top-class hotel or private leisure centre, and “elitist”—how ironic.

Today, the Scottish Council of Independent Schools told me that

“The 30,000 families, more than 3,000 teachers and more than 3,000 non-teaching staff in the independent sector will yesterday have been left in no doubt over the support or otherwise forthcoming from the Chamber. ... Any cursory post-legislative scrutiny would have shown the Parliament the genuine success of the 2005 Charity Act and unique public benefit test.”

The letter goes on to say:

“The independent sector will keep doing what it does best—for pupils from across Scotland, from all backgrounds, from all political persuasion and none. That is Scotland’s highest attainment, keeping subject choice as wide as possible, exporting Scottish education to the wider world, bringing pupils from over 50 countries to this country, and making real change to lives in their extra-curricular offer and wellbeing agendas.”

Until we got to stage 2 of the bill, the independent schools issue had attracted the most comment, then all hell broke loose when Andy Wightman unleashed his amendment 9 on the world. What a hoo-hah there was; what should have been an opportunity to debate the issue of devolving rate setting to local government got completely out of hand.

Sarah Boyack said earlier—and she was right—that stage 2 should have been an opportunity to properly test issues such as her amendment on student accommodation. At least we have a commitment to look at the issue of local government funding, and that is to be welcomed. Some good has come of the process.

We have ended up with a bill that does not have widespread support. Businesses have concerns. They think that they are being penalised and that the system here will put them at a disadvantage to businesses in other parts of the UK. Dr Liz Cameron, the chief executive of the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, said:

“The Scottish Chambers of Commerce is deeply concerned about the impact of Section 8B of the Bill which has the effect of completely removing Scottish ratepayers’ appeal rights when there is a change in economic circumstances.”

I mentioned that issue yesterday. Dr Cameron also said:

“The Conservative party tabled a Stage 3 amendment to seek such a consultation but all other parties voted against this sensible amendment to what we believe is a part of the Bill that will be damaging to all ratepayers.”

That is not something that the minister should be proud of.

The bill could have been a lot better. Business is happy only because something that was not in the bill originally is still not in it, but it is not happy about what is in the bill. The charity sector does not like it. It could all have been so different. We could—and should—have been able to support it, but we cannot.

18:25  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a stage 3 debate on motion S5M-20705, in the name of Kate Forbes, on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. Before I invite Ka...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Economy and Fair Work (Derek Mackay) SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise the Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Non-Domestic Rates...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, Mr Mackay. I call Kate Forbes to speak to and move the motion, for up to seven minutes and no longer, please. 17:33
The Minister for Public Finance and Digital Economy (Kate Forbes) SNP
I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. I start with a number of thank yous, first to the Local Government and Com...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I will make some concluding remarks on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. The bill will implement the findings of the Barclay review of non-domestic rat...
Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) SNP
Murdo Fraser has now mentioned Dollar for the second time today. Has he spoken to the rector of Dollar academy on this issue?
Murdo Fraser Con
Liz Smith has engaged with Dollar academy and many of the parents in Dollar on the issue and they share many of our concerns. There is a concern about this. ...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I begin by thanking everyone who has contributed to the debate on the bill, whether in yesterday’s proceedings or in any of the discussions that we have had ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You must come to a close, please.
Sarah Boyack Lab
In Ireland, the link has been made between rent pressure zones and affordable student accommodation. All politicians in this chamber have the job of listeni...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
I, too, thank all those who have engaged in the process and who have supported the process in Parliament. I noted at stage 1—indeed, the minister mentioned ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Willie Rennie for up to four minutes. 17:56
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I get the point. Andy Wightman’s speech was typical of his approach to the bill, which he has brought to life. I hope not to embarrass him too much with pra...
Keith Brown SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Willie Rennie LD
Not just now. When you control the purse strings, you control your destiny. The sooner that we in Parliament learn that, the stronger our communities will b...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We now move to the open debate, in which speeches must be absolutely no more than four minutes long. I warn members that if they go over their time, it will ...
James Dornan (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) SNP
In my role as convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee, I thank our clerks, the team at the Scottish Parliament information centre, the Gov...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am pleased to take part in tonight’s stage 3 debate on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. As my colleague Murdo Fraser has outlined, the Scottish Cons...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a member of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and the Federation of...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I, too, thank the Local Government and Communities Committee clerks for all their hard work and sound advice as we took forward the bill. In looking at the ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It is not that the Tories are obsessed with the issue; it is a genuine concern of many parents who have children at independent schools.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
No one wants to pay more, but it is only a 1.3 per cent increase, when they are paying, on average, a 4 per cent increase in fees. Let us be honest—most of t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Come to a close, please.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
State schools pay rates. Private schools should pay rates, too, and I am delighted that the Parliament overwhelmingly agrees with that. 18:17
Sarah Boyack Lab
It makes me wonder how we get through our committee meetings. We have gone from James Dornan to Kenneth Gibson, who was as gracious as ever. The bill is not...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Sarah Boyack Lab
I will not. The minister will have the flexibility to look at individual schools that make a case to her, which was the point raised by Andy Wightman yester...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
This has been an interesting journey. It is fair to say that what looked like a fairly uncontroversial bill has proved to be anything but. However, I want to...
Kate Forbes SNP
Before I respond to some of the specific points that have been made, I commend Andy Wightman on his efforts to raise the profile of non-domestic rates and th...