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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 05 February 2020

05 Feb 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

I, too, thank all those who have engaged in the process and who have supported the process in Parliament.

I noted at stage 1—indeed, the minister mentioned this in her opening remarks—that this is the first time that the Scottish Parliament has considered primary legislation on non-domestic rates. That is very telling, because it demonstrates how little interest there has been in Parliament in local tax and how much power the Local Government Finance Act 1992 gave to the Secretary of State for Scotland—now, to the Scottish ministers—in relation to setting the detailed design of the system through secondary legislation.

In September 2013, Derek Mackay—who was here a minute ago—the then Minister for Local Government and Planning, said that the Scottish Government would

“conduct a thorough and comprehensive review of the whole business rates system”

by 2017, which would deliver

“a fairer, simpler and more efficient business rates system.”

That review never took place. Instead, we had the Barclay review, which asked only one question:

“How would you redesign the business rates system to better support business and incentivise investment?”

That was not an inappropriate question to ask, but many other questions should have been asked, too. That narrow focus raises some fundamental points about how we develop policy and legislation.

For example, yesterday, we heard major questions about who sets the tax rate and about the treatment of privately owned student residences. Concerns have been raised about the manner in which section 10 came into being—not as a consequence of any review of charitable relief but as a means by which to raise some revenue to pay for the tax cuts that the Barclay review was focused on.

Too often, the Government, for whatever reason, feels the need to outsource policy development to so-called independent reviews. Instead of reaching out to the public or other politicians with a discussion paper or a consultation in order to gather views on the possible scope of legislation—in this case, we were dealing with primary legislation on non-domestic rates for the first time—it asks others to do the thinking. In the case of the Barclay review, such thinking was framed by an incredibly narrow remit.

We have bills to implement any reforms that are needed, but, not surprisingly, MSPs have their own ideas about the reform of non-domestic rates. We have to work within the confines of the stage 2 process to develop our ideas. The Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill was the first time that any member has had the chance to do something, because there has never been the opportunity up until now.

In her opening remarks, the minister talked about the past few weeks being “bumpy” and about aspects of the process being used as a “plaything”. I call it democracy, and I think that we should improve the system.

Since stage 2, I have had meetings and conference calls with many business groups. Although we disagree on many issues, it was something of a surprise to hear that they agreed with me that the comprehensive review that was promised back in 2013 is still needed. I pointed out that it was bit late for that, but there we are.

I will conclude by saying something about my attempt to repatriate rate setting to councils. That was not agreed to, but I am sure that it will happen. Yesterday, I quoted comments made by the constitutional steering group—which drafted the standing orders for the Parliament—in its 20th anniversary report:

“The Scottish Constitutional Convention recommended that the Scotland Act should commit the Scottish Parliament to securing and maintaining a strong and effective system of local government, embodying the principle of subsidiarity ... What we have seen instead with successive governments is a tightening of central control over local budgets and spending priorities. Our view is that the benefits of bringing decision-making back to Edinburgh in 1999 should flow through to proper empowerment of local communities through their local representative bodies.”

As I highlighted at stage 1, the removal of that tax base from the control of its historical owners—local government—is, in our view, a violation of international law. Article 9 of the Council of Europe’s European Charter of Local Self-Government provides legal protection. Article 9.3 states:

“Part at least of the financial resources of local authorities shall derive from local taxes and charges of which, within the limits of statute, they have the power to determine the rate.”

Today, they do not. We do not believe that the removal of that tax base from the control of its historical owners can be allowed to persist, because it violates international law. We cannot support the bill, but neither will we stand in its way. The Greens will abstain on the motion at decision time.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a stage 3 debate on motion S5M-20705, in the name of Kate Forbes, on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. Before I invite Ka...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Economy and Fair Work (Derek Mackay) SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise the Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Non-Domestic Rates...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, Mr Mackay. I call Kate Forbes to speak to and move the motion, for up to seven minutes and no longer, please. 17:33
The Minister for Public Finance and Digital Economy (Kate Forbes) SNP
I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. I start with a number of thank yous, first to the Local Government and Com...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I will make some concluding remarks on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. The bill will implement the findings of the Barclay review of non-domestic rat...
Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) SNP
Murdo Fraser has now mentioned Dollar for the second time today. Has he spoken to the rector of Dollar academy on this issue?
Murdo Fraser Con
Liz Smith has engaged with Dollar academy and many of the parents in Dollar on the issue and they share many of our concerns. There is a concern about this. ...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I begin by thanking everyone who has contributed to the debate on the bill, whether in yesterday’s proceedings or in any of the discussions that we have had ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You must come to a close, please.
Sarah Boyack Lab
In Ireland, the link has been made between rent pressure zones and affordable student accommodation. All politicians in this chamber have the job of listeni...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
I, too, thank all those who have engaged in the process and who have supported the process in Parliament. I noted at stage 1—indeed, the minister mentioned ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Willie Rennie for up to four minutes. 17:56
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I get the point. Andy Wightman’s speech was typical of his approach to the bill, which he has brought to life. I hope not to embarrass him too much with pra...
Keith Brown SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Willie Rennie LD
Not just now. When you control the purse strings, you control your destiny. The sooner that we in Parliament learn that, the stronger our communities will b...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We now move to the open debate, in which speeches must be absolutely no more than four minutes long. I warn members that if they go over their time, it will ...
James Dornan (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) SNP
In my role as convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee, I thank our clerks, the team at the Scottish Parliament information centre, the Gov...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am pleased to take part in tonight’s stage 3 debate on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. As my colleague Murdo Fraser has outlined, the Scottish Cons...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a member of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and the Federation of...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I, too, thank the Local Government and Communities Committee clerks for all their hard work and sound advice as we took forward the bill. In looking at the ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It is not that the Tories are obsessed with the issue; it is a genuine concern of many parents who have children at independent schools.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
No one wants to pay more, but it is only a 1.3 per cent increase, when they are paying, on average, a 4 per cent increase in fees. Let us be honest—most of t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Come to a close, please.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
State schools pay rates. Private schools should pay rates, too, and I am delighted that the Parliament overwhelmingly agrees with that. 18:17
Sarah Boyack Lab
It makes me wonder how we get through our committee meetings. We have gone from James Dornan to Kenneth Gibson, who was as gracious as ever. The bill is not...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Sarah Boyack Lab
I will not. The minister will have the flexibility to look at individual schools that make a case to her, which was the point raised by Andy Wightman yester...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
This has been an interesting journey. It is fair to say that what looked like a fairly uncontroversial bill has proved to be anything but. However, I want to...
Kate Forbes SNP
Before I respond to some of the specific points that have been made, I commend Andy Wightman on his efforts to raise the profile of non-domestic rates and th...