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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 23 January 2020

23 Jan 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Consumer Scotland Bill: Stage 1

I will use the time that I have to probe the minister, to try to get some transparency where there is opaqueness and some clarity and substance where there is silence and spin.

I say gently to the minister that the burden of proof in demonstrating the case for consumer Scotland rests on his shoulders. This is a Government bill with the force of Government behind it. Many of us are open minded and broadly embrace the idea, but we have yet to be convinced by legislation that is largely flat and pedestrian. We want to see a passive state give way to an active state.

Of course, there are some especially acute consumer issues in Scotland, such as the additional delivery charges that are imposed on people in the north of Scotland and on the islands. Such parcel surcharging raises fundamental questions about where such a service ought to sit between the public and the private sector, what role there is for average versus marginal pricing in the charging regime, and where our commitment to the universal obligation is.

Similarly, where is that commitment to universality when it comes to the establishment of a comprehensive broadband network or mobile phone coverage across Scotland? What rights do consumers and entire communities have to equal access? Where they exist, how can those rights be realised and, where necessary, enforced?

The objectives of consumer Scotland have not yet been defined. Some ideas, such as the duty to vulnerable customers, are welcome; however, the definition of “vulnerable customers” is not inclusive enough. I welcome the minister’s comments this afternoon about revisiting that definition.

The objectives of the new body should not be based on a desire to eliminate harm alone. We heard that language again this afternoon. Rather, it should be more proactive and concerned not only with consumer protection but with consumer benefit.

We also need to consider the definition of “consumers”, because consumers are not just individuals but communities that collectively receive things and are affected by markets operating well or failing badly. Consumer Scotland should define “consumers” to include communities of interest and of place. That will be important in ensuring that it can best assist those communities.

It is suggested that the new agency will have a research focus, which might be useful in taking an evidence-led approach to consumer detriment and consumer benefit. However, is a lot of useful evidence not already collected and presented to us by Citizens Advice Scotland? Therein lies a wider point that I think we will return to again and again this afternoon. Can the minister tell us where the added value in the proposal lies, given the existing excellent work of Citizens Advice Scotland? It has a crucial role to play.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-20544, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on the Consumer Scotland Bill at stage 1. 14:52
The Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
I am very pleased to open the stage 1 debate on the Consumer Scotland Bill. Although it is a small bill, it has enormous potential to benefit the people of S...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Gordon Lindhurst, convener of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee, to speak on behalf of the committee. 15:04
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
There can be little doubt that consumer spending has a significant impact on the economy. We are all consumers, after all. The late Roger Scruton said that t...
Dean Lockhart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the committee clerking team, the witnesses and all those who gave evidence at stage 1 of the bill. The Consumer Scotland Bill is enabling legi...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Will Dean Lockhart give way?
Dean Lockhart Con
I have a long list here, but time prevents my listing the huge number of potential consumers who could benefit from the bill. If I have time, Presiding Offic...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The point is so intriguing that I am happy to hear the minister’s response.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
The fundamental point is that we want to create an organisation that is independent and can set its own priorities in looking at the issues of greatest consu...
Dean Lockhart Con
I look forward to that, because a huge number of consumers badly need protection and have been badly let down; the examples that I mentioned are just some of...
Richard Leonard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I will use the time that I have to probe the minister, to try to get some transparency where there is opaqueness and some clarity and substance where there i...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
One of the most obvious and immediate benefits is that, as a statutory entity, consumer Scotland will have powers to demand information from certain organisa...
Richard Leonard Lab
I thank the minister for that response, which was helpful and constructive. However, a question remains to be answered about the potential loss of resources ...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Richard Leonard Lab
I will.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Consumer Scotland will not only be able to do that; as the bill sets out, it will have to do that. The bill places a duty on it to report on any investigatio...
Richard Leonard Lab
The point that I was in the middle of making, though, was about whether it will also be entitled—and, indeed, required—to make recommendations on both primar...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
They are in the bill.
Richard Leonard Lab
We will play a constructive role, but we will not shirk our responsibility to scrutinise the proposals. If the minister believes that that information is all...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Will the member give way?
Richard Leonard Lab
I will not, as I am concluding my remarks. We will be critics not because we want the new consumer body to fail but precisely because we want it to succeed....
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
I thank the clerks of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee, the Scottish Parliament information centre and all those who gave evidence on the bill. I...
Jackie Baillie Lab
He was there.
Andy Wightman Green
We have had important case law since then. Members will be very familiar with the case of Donoghue v Stevenson, which involved a snail and a bottle of ginger...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Will the member give way?
Andy Wightman Green
Yes.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I agree with the fundamental premise that Andy Wightman is laying out. However, does he accept that, in setting out that it is about reducing consumer harm, ...
Andy Wightman Green
That is a very fair point. We should not seek to amend the bill in such a way that we risk leaving things out by omission. Any conversations that we have wil...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I am new to the issue, as I do not sit on the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee, but I have been following the bill with interest. I echo the thanks of...
Gordon MacDonald (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) SNP
Since the abolition of the Scottish Consumer Council in October 2008 by the then Labour Government, there has been no dedicated Scottish body with responsibi...