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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 December 2019

19 Dec 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Referendums (Scotland) Bill

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in favour of the bill, which I do confident in the knowledge that pretty much no serious evidence was submitted during the process that disagreed with the principle of having framework legislation on referendums. Rather, there was broad agreement that it is a good idea.

There was, however, also broad agreement that the bill as introduced was not adequate; it has been substantially changed since then. Adam Tomkins said that the bill is “less bad” than it was when it was introduced, which might be the closest that we get to high praise from him. Nonetheless, it is true that it is a less bad bill. There have been significant improvements, which are adequate for me to be able to support the bill.

Referendums can be done well or they can be done badly. That is true in relation to the practice, the process, the conduct, and the legislation under which they operate. It is also true in relation to the political judgments and the nature of political campaigning around referendums. The bill will improve the former: the practice, the process, the conduct and the legislation under which referendums will operate in the future.

However, improving the politics of how and why we use referendums—of their purpose and meaning in our democracy—is something that we all, as political actors, need to take responsibility for. I do not mean just we, in the chamber; I mean we, in our society and our democracy.

There can be very little doubt that the argument that Alex Rowley referred to, about the sovereignty of Parliament, holds great importance for many people at UK political level. However, it does not always sit easily with the principle of the sovereignty of the people that we speak of in Scottish constitutional history. That conflict is one of the things that has played out in chaotic and damaging ways at UK level in recent years. In fact, the people in the UK Government who are today proudly and patriotically asserting the sovereignty of Parliament are the very same people who have been demanding that a wafer-thin majority in an advisory referendum that was conducted with—at best—dubious tactics represents the unshakeable and unchallengeable will of the people, and that it has to be implemented, even to the point of illegally proroguing the UK Parliament. Those who assert one principle but live by another do not necessarily speak from the high ground in relation to those issues.

I have argued since—I think—before the bill was introduced that we should look to Ireland if we want to learn how to improve the politics of how we do referendums and why we use them. In what could have been deeply divisive and polarising issues, Ireland did not frame referendums simply by giving the job either to politicians or to an electoral commission. Rather, it actively brought in deliberative processes, with citizen-led discussion about what questions should be put to referendum and how to frame them. In that way, what might otherwise have been divisive and polarising referendums were much more unifying experiences.

I do not pretend that we can solve every aspect of the challenges that we will face as we approach the next independence referendum; it is coming and it is necessary. We can improve the legislation today, but we cannot with a single bill improve the politics of how we do referendums. We will all need to take responsibility for that, and learn lessons from what, in the past, we have done well and what we have done badly.

15:55  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-20237, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Referendums (Scotland) Bill at stage 3.
The Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations (Michael Russell) SNP
I thank all those who have been involved in shaping and developing the bill over the past few months. I am very grateful to the bill team, which has done a t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Excuse me, cabinet secretary. I say to all members that Parliament has resumed, so no private conversations should be going on and no backs should be turned ...
Michael Russell SNP
It is perfectly possible to shape and develop a bill in a way that makes it better. That has happened in the case of this bill, and I am grateful to each mem...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I believe that the cabinet secretary has said that there are no plans to have any referendum other than one on Scotland’s constitutional future. I accept the...
Michael Russell SNP
I will address that question in two ways. First, the bill does not create a Scottish independence referendum—no ifs, no buts. It puts in place a framework, w...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the cabinet secretary make it clear that the only reason he foresees using the legislation is for an independence referendum?
Michael Russell SNP
I have never said that. In fact, I gave evidence to the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, which Mr Simpson convenes, on other areas in which I thoug...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
We all know the reality, Presiding Officer. This was not intended, and never was intended, by the Scottish National Party to be a framework bill for all refe...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
Does Adam Tomkins not agree that people can change their mind, as Jackson Carlaw did on his position regarding Brexit?
Adam Tomkins Con
I take the First Minister at her word. I would have thought that, as a very loyal servant of the First Minister, the member would do the same. The First Mini...
Patrick Harvie Green
Will the member give way?
Adam Tomkins Con
I will happily give way to Mr Harvie in one minute. If we are really to have a legislative framework for referendums, we surely need to have some grasp of w...
Patrick Harvie Green
Those are important questions, but would it not be regrettable if we were to pass framework legislation that took a restrictive view? For example, the bill a...
Adam Tomkins Con
That is right. There is a degree of flexibility about that. However, it does not address the critical question, which, as Michael Russell said in his opening...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Come to a close, please.
Adam Tomkins Con
—which was delivered by Her Majesty from the throne in the House of Lords this afternoon, made it perfectly clear that this people’s Government will not allo...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
In opening the debate for Scottish Labour at stage 1, I said that “If we, as a country, were to want to move to a more direct democracy in which referendums...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in favour of the bill, which I do confident in the knowledge that pretty much no serious evidence was submitted...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
MSPs from all across the chamber should be here to speak in support of a non-controversial technical bill to manage the detail of referendums that might take...
Patrick Harvie Green
Will the member take an intervention?
Mike Rumbles LD
I am afraid that I have only four minutes. Patrick Harvie complained earlier about my use of the phrase “mask of nationalism”, but it is an apt phrase. Mr H...
Patrick Harvie Green
Will the member give way?
Mike Rumbles LD
Because I have more time, I will give way.
Patrick Harvie Green
I say, with the best will in the world, that I would not call Mike Rumbles a British nationalist, and he would not thank me if I did. Would he please pay the...
Mike Rumbles LD
No, because that is exactly what the Green Party is—a nationalist party. It is amazing that it pretends that it is not a nationalist party. The Scottish Gov...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
I want to do two things in the time that we have available for today’s important debate. Before I do that, I note that I am disappointed in the boorish and r...
Alexander Burnett (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Con
We could have been spending the last moments of this year in Parliament debating something that is important to the majority of people in Scotland. We could ...
Bruce Crawford SNP
Can Alexander Burnett give us an example of where the committee failed in the parliamentary scrutiny process or, indeed, where extra time should have been bu...
Alexander Burnett Con
I think that we would all have wanted more time for the Electoral Commission to give its agreement to the bill. That is one example, and it is very sad that ...