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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 05 February 2020

05 Feb 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Forbes, Kate SNP Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch Watch on SPTV

Before I respond to some of the specific points that have been made, I commend Andy Wightman on his efforts to raise the profile of non-domestic rates and the bill more generally through his amendments. I understand that this might be cold comfort, but I respect the fact that he is standing up for something that he passionately believes in. On that basis, I understand his decision not to support the bill. However, I thank him for his challenge, which has pushed me harder and made me rethink issues on a number of occasions. It has also caused my officials to think and think again. Although a faster review of the fiscal framework might be poor consolation compared with changing the law altogether, I do not think that the debate has been in vain. It might have been a frustrating experience in part, but he has done more than anybody else to raise awareness of the issue.

I understand their reasons, but I am disappointed that, although the Conservatives support 27 substantial sections of the bill, they will not support the bill because they do not support one substantive section.

On Labour’s position, Sarah Boyack is quite right to say that this is just the beginning for a lot of the issues that we have been airing for the first time during this process. Daniel Johnson brought to life the impact of the non-domestic rates system on real ratepayers up and down the country who are contending with the non-domestic rates system.

The bill progresses the issues quite significantly. Daniel Johnson, Sarah Boyack and James Dornan all talked about the next steps and the need for post-legislative scrutiny. The bill is clearly not coming to the end of the road tonight, although there will be a vote. It has opened up a number of conversations on issues such as phoenix companies, and we have agreed a timetable with Labour colleagues, which we are happy to share with other colleagues, for exploring that issue further and considering potential solutions. We are committed to working on a fiscal framework with local authorities, and we will progress that at pace. We are also committed to maintaining momentum on this issue. As an example of that, the appeals sub-group is being reconvened tomorrow to consider some of the issues that have been flagged.

I am delighted that the bill does a lot and delivers what ratepayers are looking for. Failure to support the bill tonight would deprive councils of policy responsibility for empty property relief, powers to prevent ratepayers from running up large debts and powers to tackle tax avoidance, including through phoenixing and the abuse of the small business bonus scheme and charity relief. The bill allows assessors to collect information that is necessary to set accurate rateable values and to allow them to resolve appeals more efficiently and effectively. It will support ratepayers and help them to be less exposed to the risks of volatility, inconsistency and a cumbersome and unresponsive appeals system.

The bill delivers the outcomes of the Barclay review of non-domestic rates. It supports growth, it improves the administration of the system and it increases fairness for ratepayers. For those reasons, it has the support not only of the Scottish Government but, more important, of the business community and local government. It has the support of Ken Barclay, and, at decision time tonight, I hope that it will also have the support of the Scottish Parliament.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a stage 3 debate on motion S5M-20705, in the name of Kate Forbes, on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. Before I invite Ka...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Economy and Fair Work (Derek Mackay) SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise the Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Non-Domestic Rates...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, Mr Mackay. I call Kate Forbes to speak to and move the motion, for up to seven minutes and no longer, please. 17:33
The Minister for Public Finance and Digital Economy (Kate Forbes) SNP
I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. I start with a number of thank yous, first to the Local Government and Com...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I will make some concluding remarks on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. The bill will implement the findings of the Barclay review of non-domestic rat...
Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) SNP
Murdo Fraser has now mentioned Dollar for the second time today. Has he spoken to the rector of Dollar academy on this issue?
Murdo Fraser Con
Liz Smith has engaged with Dollar academy and many of the parents in Dollar on the issue and they share many of our concerns. There is a concern about this. ...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I begin by thanking everyone who has contributed to the debate on the bill, whether in yesterday’s proceedings or in any of the discussions that we have had ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You must come to a close, please.
Sarah Boyack Lab
In Ireland, the link has been made between rent pressure zones and affordable student accommodation. All politicians in this chamber have the job of listeni...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
I, too, thank all those who have engaged in the process and who have supported the process in Parliament. I noted at stage 1—indeed, the minister mentioned ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Willie Rennie for up to four minutes. 17:56
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I get the point. Andy Wightman’s speech was typical of his approach to the bill, which he has brought to life. I hope not to embarrass him too much with pra...
Keith Brown SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Willie Rennie LD
Not just now. When you control the purse strings, you control your destiny. The sooner that we in Parliament learn that, the stronger our communities will b...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We now move to the open debate, in which speeches must be absolutely no more than four minutes long. I warn members that if they go over their time, it will ...
James Dornan (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) SNP
In my role as convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee, I thank our clerks, the team at the Scottish Parliament information centre, the Gov...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am pleased to take part in tonight’s stage 3 debate on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. As my colleague Murdo Fraser has outlined, the Scottish Cons...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a member of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and the Federation of...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I, too, thank the Local Government and Communities Committee clerks for all their hard work and sound advice as we took forward the bill. In looking at the ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It is not that the Tories are obsessed with the issue; it is a genuine concern of many parents who have children at independent schools.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
No one wants to pay more, but it is only a 1.3 per cent increase, when they are paying, on average, a 4 per cent increase in fees. Let us be honest—most of t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Come to a close, please.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
State schools pay rates. Private schools should pay rates, too, and I am delighted that the Parliament overwhelmingly agrees with that. 18:17
Sarah Boyack Lab
It makes me wonder how we get through our committee meetings. We have gone from James Dornan to Kenneth Gibson, who was as gracious as ever. The bill is not...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Sarah Boyack Lab
I will not. The minister will have the flexibility to look at individual schools that make a case to her, which was the point raised by Andy Wightman yester...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
This has been an interesting journey. It is fair to say that what looked like a fairly uncontroversial bill has proved to be anything but. However, I want to...
Kate Forbes SNP
Before I respond to some of the specific points that have been made, I commend Andy Wightman on his efforts to raise the profile of non-domestic rates and th...