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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 05 February 2020

05 Feb 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Dornan, James SNP Glasgow Cathcart Watch on SPTV

In my role as convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee, I thank our clerks, the team at the Scottish Parliament information centre, the Government and the many people and organisations that provided us with evidence. I also thank my fellow committee members. I remind members that the committee was working to a pretty strict remit, and what came out was well worth the work that we put in. I enjoyed convening the committee throughout the bill’s legislative stages, so I am delighted to be given the opportunity to take part in today’s proceedings.

During the committee’s scrutiny of and discussion on the bill, there were some inevitable points of disagreement. I will mention them briefly. Relief for private schools was one—Murdo Fraser has just spent an inordinate amount of time discussing that—and Andy Wightman’s amendment on the devolution of business rates was another. The arguments on those two areas got a good airing yesterday, so I will not go over them again today.

Those two issues may have been the most contentious, but, lest we forget, in its stage 1 report, the committee unanimously endorsed the general principles of the bill. We welcomed it as an important staging post on the journey to modernisation of the system that began when Kenneth Barclay and his colleagues were appointed in summer 2016 with a wide remit to

“seek to enhance and reform non-domestic rates”.

To have reached the point where, it appears, we are about to pass a bill some of whose provisions will come into force in April is an impressive show of momentum, and credit is due to the Barclay review and the Scottish Government for their work.

I said that it appears that we are going to pass the bill, but the three previous speakers sounded as though they had searched through the bill to see whether they could find something that they disagreed with so that, although they seemed to support a lot of it, they could decide not to vote for it. That is disappointing.

A staging post is not a destination. The committee noted that much of the bill was a framework, with some crucial detail still to be sorted out. In the two or three minutes that I have left, I will focus on areas where the committee would agree, I think, that the momentum should be kept up.

The bill will speed up the revaluation cycle from five to three years, and everyone has welcomed that. It means more work for assessors at a time when the profession told us that recruitment and retention were becoming a bit of a problem. The Government pointed out that it has already provided welcome additional resources to the tune of £2.5 million this financial year in anticipation of the Barclay reforms. Assessors themselves accept that it is not just about money; in the longer term, the role needs to be made more visible and attractive to graduates and school leavers. Giving assessors more power to carry out their core role, as the bill does, should also help.

Everyone agrees that there are too many appeals against revaluation, and that they clog up the system. The bill puts in place ambitious reforms to the appeal system that will improve decisions and build trust in the system. It is widely accepted that we will have succeeded only if that brings the numbers down and, overall, provides finality on rates bills sooner.

In our stage 1 report, we noted three areas where changes could be made. The first is more digitalisation and a move to a more online system, and I am pleased to note that the Government appears to agree. The second is increased transparency and better communication between assessors and ratepayers. The committee heard from some ratepayers that much of the current process seems to be wrapped in mystery.

The third area is fees for appeals. The aim is not to create a new income stream, but simply to hit a pause button and make ratepayers stop and think about whether an appeal is worth the time and money. The numbers alone indicate that there is a problem, with appeals appearing to be almost an everyday part of the process.

Non-domestic rates might not get many people excited but, with hand on heart, I can say that the bill is one of the most diverse and interesting that the committee has considered during my time as convener. It has led us down interesting by-ways to golf clubs, bandstands and lace factories, among others.

Crucial challenges lie ahead, not least of which is reform of the small business bonus scheme, which the committee hopes will keep the system’s better features but eliminate its cliff edges and perverse incentives.

I hope that the bill becomes an act tonight. The committee looks forward to renewing our engagement with the non-domestic rates system in the future.

18:05  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a stage 3 debate on motion S5M-20705, in the name of Kate Forbes, on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. Before I invite Ka...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Economy and Fair Work (Derek Mackay) SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise the Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Non-Domestic Rates...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, Mr Mackay. I call Kate Forbes to speak to and move the motion, for up to seven minutes and no longer, please. 17:33
The Minister for Public Finance and Digital Economy (Kate Forbes) SNP
I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. I start with a number of thank yous, first to the Local Government and Com...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I will make some concluding remarks on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. The bill will implement the findings of the Barclay review of non-domestic rat...
Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) SNP
Murdo Fraser has now mentioned Dollar for the second time today. Has he spoken to the rector of Dollar academy on this issue?
Murdo Fraser Con
Liz Smith has engaged with Dollar academy and many of the parents in Dollar on the issue and they share many of our concerns. There is a concern about this. ...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I begin by thanking everyone who has contributed to the debate on the bill, whether in yesterday’s proceedings or in any of the discussions that we have had ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You must come to a close, please.
Sarah Boyack Lab
In Ireland, the link has been made between rent pressure zones and affordable student accommodation. All politicians in this chamber have the job of listeni...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
I, too, thank all those who have engaged in the process and who have supported the process in Parliament. I noted at stage 1—indeed, the minister mentioned ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Willie Rennie for up to four minutes. 17:56
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I get the point. Andy Wightman’s speech was typical of his approach to the bill, which he has brought to life. I hope not to embarrass him too much with pra...
Keith Brown SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Willie Rennie LD
Not just now. When you control the purse strings, you control your destiny. The sooner that we in Parliament learn that, the stronger our communities will b...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We now move to the open debate, in which speeches must be absolutely no more than four minutes long. I warn members that if they go over their time, it will ...
James Dornan (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) SNP
In my role as convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee, I thank our clerks, the team at the Scottish Parliament information centre, the Gov...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am pleased to take part in tonight’s stage 3 debate on the Non-Domestic Rates (Scotland) Bill. As my colleague Murdo Fraser has outlined, the Scottish Cons...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a member of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and the Federation of...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I, too, thank the Local Government and Communities Committee clerks for all their hard work and sound advice as we took forward the bill. In looking at the ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It is not that the Tories are obsessed with the issue; it is a genuine concern of many parents who have children at independent schools.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
No one wants to pay more, but it is only a 1.3 per cent increase, when they are paying, on average, a 4 per cent increase in fees. Let us be honest—most of t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Come to a close, please.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
State schools pay rates. Private schools should pay rates, too, and I am delighted that the Parliament overwhelmingly agrees with that. 18:17
Sarah Boyack Lab
It makes me wonder how we get through our committee meetings. We have gone from James Dornan to Kenneth Gibson, who was as gracious as ever. The bill is not...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Sarah Boyack Lab
I will not. The minister will have the flexibility to look at individual schools that make a case to her, which was the point raised by Andy Wightman yester...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
This has been an interesting journey. It is fair to say that what looked like a fairly uncontroversial bill has proved to be anything but. However, I want to...
Kate Forbes SNP
Before I respond to some of the specific points that have been made, I commend Andy Wightman on his efforts to raise the profile of non-domestic rates and th...