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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 29 January 2020

29 Jan 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scotland’s Future

I completely understand that the thought of five more years of a Boris Johnson Government is driving some people to despair and others to anger, and that discontent is widespread, but it must be understood that the people of Scotland do not want another independence referendum anytime soon. The people know—they have applied common sense to this—that we need to do some hard thinking and work through the Brexit situation. They know that until we do that, given the profound uncertainty about the nature and terms of the future economic, trading, social and cultural relationships between the people of the UK and the people of the EU, a referendum in 2020 makes no sense whatsoever. Yet that is the proposition that we are being asked to vote on this afternoon. The First Minister herself said that a second independence referendum should not happen until after Brexit is done. Brexit is not done and it will not be done in 2020.

The Government motion talks of a “material change in circumstances”, but we do not yet know what those changes will be. However lofty the First Minister’s rhetoric is, she and everybody knows that she is playing a game. Nobody in the chamber really believes that there will be a referendum this year—I am not sure that many people in this chamber believe that there should be one this year. Members are being asked to vote for what they know to be a falsehood and many of them are prepared to do it willingly.

This debate is not an example of a good use of power. The First Minister claims to be speaking for Scotland, but she is not even speaking to Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon is using the Parliament to speak to her own party and she is not even telling it the truth. The way in which the Government is using the Parliament shows a rather contemptuous use of power.

The Government’s motion is a synthetic political manufacture dressed up as high principle. It is our duty as members of this Parliament to expose that and to offer real leadership on this question. It is our duty to represent all of the people, not just placate an overagitated political base of activists.

We know the numbers in the Parliament, and we know that the Greens will support the motion. I say in all sincerity to the Greens that a turn to nationalism at a time when we face a global economic and climate crisis is a move in precisely the wrong direction. We should not be putting up national boundaries; we should be pulling them down.

Our objective as members of this Parliament is to promote the welfare of the people—not just their material welfare, but their welfare in the broader sense—so, in our amendment, we call on the Government to focus its energies on minimising the impact of the Tories’ disastrous Brexit deal; to double down on ensuring that, in the coming months, powers are repatriated to Scotland during the Brexit process; and to focus on establishing a new home rule principle that is fit for the 21st century whereby, in the wake of Brexit, all that can be devolved is devolved, not just to the Scottish Parliament but to local government and local communities right across Scotland. Our vision is of a modern 2020 home rule that recognises that we need to radically redistribute wealth and power by tackling inequalities rather than simply reproducing them in a separate Scottish state.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-20615, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, on Scotland’s future. 14:41
The First Minister (Nicola Sturgeon) SNP
Today, I ask Parliament to endorse a basic but fundamental principle: that Scotland’s future should be decided not by politicians at Westminster who have not...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I do not support independence—that will be no surprise to the First Minister. However, had the motion been more realistic and rational, I might have voted fo...
The First Minister SNP
Neil Findlay has a more respectable position on the issue than many of his colleagues, but he either accepts Scotland’s right to choose our own future or he ...
Jackson Carlaw (Eastwood) (Con) Con
Will the First Minister give way?
The First Minister SNP
I hope that Jackson Carlaw will back our migration proposals.
Jackson Carlaw Con
If the First Minister was trying to build a genuine consensus in this Parliament on the proposals, she might have circulated them or offered them to the lead...
The First Minister SNP
I assure Jackson Carlaw that the proposals are available on the internet. I am sure that he is able to use a computer. However, in the interests of consensus...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
Will the First Minister give way?
The First Minister SNP
In a moment. I accept that many people in this chamber—including the member who is trying to intervene—and across the country take a different view on indep...
Mike Rumbles LD
It is appropriate that the First Minister gives way on that point, because she has just cited an opinion poll that puts the figure at 60 per cent. However, w...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Order. Can we hear the question, please?
Mike Rumbles LD
Some members might not like that, but it is a fact. How about recognising a democratic mandate?
The First Minister SNP
I know of at least one Liberal Democrat candidate who stood in that election in Scotland and backed Scottish independence, so Mike Rumbles’s argument is some...
Jackson Carlaw (Eastwood) (Con) Con
I thank the First Minister for fulfilling—for the first time, in my experience—a promise that she made here, in the Parliament. I have just received a copy o...
The First Minister SNP
Will Jackson Carlaw address the fact that Scotland, against its will, will be taken out of the EU in two days? He used to oppose that but is now a born-again...
Jackson Carlaw Con
I am speaking to the amendment in my name, which concentrates on the priorities that the people of Scotland want to see addressed. Most people will see the ...
Richard Leonard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I completely understand that the thought of five more years of a Boris Johnson Government is driving some people to despair and others to anger, and that dis...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Richard Leonard Lab
I am in my final minute. Our vision is a realistic vision of not just a redistribution of power between Parliaments, but a redistribution of power and wealt...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Order, please.
Richard Leonard Lab
—giving hope to our young people and dignity to our pensioners in retirement, meeting the challenges of climate change and technological change, creating the...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Before I call Willie Rennie to speak on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I ask members to stop the on-going heckling. That applies to members across the cham...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
When I saw the wording of the motion and realised that we would have not just one but two speeches on independence this week, I wondered whether the debate w...
The First Minister SNP
Will Willie Rennie give way?
Willie Rennie LD
Not just now. Members: Aw!
Willie Rennie LD
I will come to the First Minister in a second, when I am ready. The First Minister softened the message during the general election. She appealed to Labour ...
The First Minister SNP
Will the member give way?
Willie Rennie LD
Not just now. There was hardly any mention of independence at that stage, then talk of it was ramped right up after the general election. The First Minister...
The First Minister SNP
Willie Rennie has set out what, in his view, does not constitute a mandate for an independence referendum. Perhaps he could use some of his time to tell us w...