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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 23 January 2020

23 Jan 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Consumer Scotland Bill: Stage 1

There can be little doubt that consumer spending has a significant impact on the economy. We are all consumers, after all. The late Roger Scruton said that the label of consumer belonged to,

“Whoever realises the use-value of a good, say, by eating food, by hanging and admiring a picture on his wall, by wearing clothes”.

Indeed, we all buy things in shops and online. We also choose energy tariffs, compare insurance policies, switch phone providers, book train tickets and pay direct debits. Sometimes, we seek to get our money back. We might have problems with the things that we buy and try to use. We might even feel as though we have been exploited or scammed.

As the minister outlined, the Consumer (Scotland) Bill seeks to strengthen the rights of consumers through the creation of a new public body. The intention of the new body is to strengthen consumer advocacy and advice, to identify how and why consumers experience harm in Scotland, and to mitigate that harm. It is a welcome bill, but, in many ways, it raises more questions than it answers. Stakeholders, witnesses and committee members broadly supported the bill in principle, with many telling the committee that there were gaps in the current advice and advocacy provisions. However, one could be forgiven for questioning what the bill does and what difference the new body will make to Scottish consumers in practice.

With limited detail in the bill about the overall structure and the operational model and activities of consumer Scotland, witnesses had different ideas of what the body’s priorities should be. A wish list of work programme priorities emerged, with research, product recall, quality assurance of advice and alternative dispute resolution all highlighted as worthy areas for consumer Scotland’s attention.

How the new body would interact with existing bodies that already work in that area was a further area of debate. Consultant Sarah O’Neill told us:

“consumer Scotland will want to set out criteria for why it will do certain pieces of work and why they are important. For example, what is the level of detriment? How many people will it affect? Is anyone else working on it?”—[Official Report, Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee, 5 November 2019; c 31.]

The minister offered assurances that consumer Scotland will collaborate with existing bodies to avoid duplication, but it remains unclear how that would be done. The committee has asked the minister to outline, in advance of stage 2, further detail on the form and functions of consumer Scotland, including how it will interact with other bodies. We welcome the minister’s commitment to do so.

The committee believes that the Scottish Government must ensure that the new body operates in a way that strengthens and does not impede the work of existing bodies. We saw concern from bodies such as Citizens Advice Scotland that their roles could be weakened. It remains unclear how consumer Scotland’s proposed advice and advocacy role will impact on the future role of Citizens Advice Scotland and its bureaux network.

Further questions were raised about respective remits and what that would mean for long-term funding. Many noted difficulties in separating consumer issues from other forms of advice, as people often experience problems in clusters. The committee recommended that the bill’s duty to collaborate is extended beyond public bodies to include third sector advice organisations, including CAS. I am pleased to say that the minister agrees and has committed to lodging an amendment at stage 2.

On a different matter, there was concern among some witnesses that consumer Scotland should have greater influence on trading standards and enforcement issues. Consumer enforcement, including trading standards powers, is reserved to the UK Government, which led some to question how consumer Scotland could seek to influence those areas. Matters of competition are also reserved, but are of equally great importance to how the consumer landscape operates. Given that background, the committee explored how information sharing with trading standards and other organisations could benefit consumer Scotland’s proposed evidence-led strategic role.

I move on to consumer duty. The bill creates a requirement for certain public bodies to consider the impact of their decisions on consumers. The Scottish Government considers that to be an important development in embedding consumer interests across policy areas and balancing what can, at times, seem like conflicting interests.

So far, so good. However, at the risk of sounding repetitive, I must say that many witnesses supported the idea of a consumer duty but were unclear about what that would involve, who it would involve and what impact it would have. Neither the nature of the duty, nor the processes for it, are specified in any detail in the bill, although consumer Scotland would have a statutory duty to publish guidance. Citizens Advice Scotland said:

“The Bill as presented is too greatly focused on the single output of creating Consumer Scotland and too little is said about how this action creates a better outcome for citizens in terms of an enhanced system to better protect their interests.”

The minister told the committee that the duty’s design and implementation will, again, be carried out collaboratively to avoid it becoming either a token gesture or an administrative burden. We await the outcome of those discussions, and I am sure that some of my colleagues in the debate will go into some of the issues in greater depth.

On another point, many witnesses criticised the bill’s definition of consumer for excluding individuals acting in a business capacity. The minister mentioned that point in his opening remarks. For example, sole traders who run their own businesses will not be covered and neither will small or microbusinesses. Some witnesses told us that small businesses often face the same disadvantages as individual consumers in their knowledge of markets, bargaining power and ability to enforce their rights when things go wrong. The Federation of Small Businesses Scotland identified the vulnerability of smaller businesses as consumers:

“From banking to online scams, from parcel delivery to energy and water contracts”

they

“can often find themselves the victims of unfair and exploitative behaviour.”

The committee believes that many challenges faced by consumers are equally, if not more applicable to people running small businesses. Those people often have limited resources to pursue complaints and may also be suffering additional detrimental impact on their ability to run their business. The minister has, of course, committed to exploring those issues with interested parties, which I welcome.

The committee received 54 written submissions to our call for views and we heard from 19 witnesses across four committee meetings. It is always important to the committee’s work to hear views from individuals—businesses and others—in any work that we do, so we thank everyone who informed our scrutiny of the bill.

Turning to another part, perhaps, of the political constellation from the one that I started with, according to President John F Kennedy:

“Consumers by definition, include us all. They are the largest economic group, affecting and affected by almost every public and private economic decision. Yet they are the only important group whose views are often not heard.”

The committee approves the general principles of the bill.

15:13  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-20544, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on the Consumer Scotland Bill at stage 1. 14:52
The Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
I am very pleased to open the stage 1 debate on the Consumer Scotland Bill. Although it is a small bill, it has enormous potential to benefit the people of S...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Gordon Lindhurst, convener of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee, to speak on behalf of the committee. 15:04
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
There can be little doubt that consumer spending has a significant impact on the economy. We are all consumers, after all. The late Roger Scruton said that t...
Dean Lockhart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the committee clerking team, the witnesses and all those who gave evidence at stage 1 of the bill. The Consumer Scotland Bill is enabling legi...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Will Dean Lockhart give way?
Dean Lockhart Con
I have a long list here, but time prevents my listing the huge number of potential consumers who could benefit from the bill. If I have time, Presiding Offic...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The point is so intriguing that I am happy to hear the minister’s response.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
The fundamental point is that we want to create an organisation that is independent and can set its own priorities in looking at the issues of greatest consu...
Dean Lockhart Con
I look forward to that, because a huge number of consumers badly need protection and have been badly let down; the examples that I mentioned are just some of...
Richard Leonard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I will use the time that I have to probe the minister, to try to get some transparency where there is opaqueness and some clarity and substance where there i...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
One of the most obvious and immediate benefits is that, as a statutory entity, consumer Scotland will have powers to demand information from certain organisa...
Richard Leonard Lab
I thank the minister for that response, which was helpful and constructive. However, a question remains to be answered about the potential loss of resources ...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Richard Leonard Lab
I will.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Consumer Scotland will not only be able to do that; as the bill sets out, it will have to do that. The bill places a duty on it to report on any investigatio...
Richard Leonard Lab
The point that I was in the middle of making, though, was about whether it will also be entitled—and, indeed, required—to make recommendations on both primar...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
They are in the bill.
Richard Leonard Lab
We will play a constructive role, but we will not shirk our responsibility to scrutinise the proposals. If the minister believes that that information is all...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Will the member give way?
Richard Leonard Lab
I will not, as I am concluding my remarks. We will be critics not because we want the new consumer body to fail but precisely because we want it to succeed....
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
I thank the clerks of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee, the Scottish Parliament information centre and all those who gave evidence on the bill. I...
Jackie Baillie Lab
He was there.
Andy Wightman Green
We have had important case law since then. Members will be very familiar with the case of Donoghue v Stevenson, which involved a snail and a bottle of ginger...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Will the member give way?
Andy Wightman Green
Yes.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I agree with the fundamental premise that Andy Wightman is laying out. However, does he accept that, in setting out that it is about reducing consumer harm, ...
Andy Wightman Green
That is a very fair point. We should not seek to amend the bill in such a way that we risk leaving things out by omission. Any conversations that we have wil...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I am new to the issue, as I do not sit on the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee, but I have been following the bill with interest. I echo the thanks of...
Gordon MacDonald (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) SNP
Since the abolition of the Scottish Consumer Council in October 2008 by the then Labour Government, there has been no dedicated Scottish body with responsibi...