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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 21 January 2020

21 Jan 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish National Investment Bank Bill

I support having a Scottish national investment bank. It is fair to say that it has been a long time in coming. I think that John Swinney—clearly behind Richard Leonard in doing so—announced it a decade ago and re-announced it every year thereafter, because there was no money to capitalise the bank. That was until the UK Government came up with financial transaction money, the future of which is in doubt. Keith Brown described it as “funny money” at the time, but we now embrace it as a positive capitalisation of the SNIB.

The Scottish Government tells us that, if financial transactions are discontinued after March 2021—which is a real possibility—the bank will have to rely on traditional capital or the Scottish Government’s borrowing powers. The borrowing limit is £400 million a year, not taking into account the normal Government spending commitments that are made for public sector infrastructure such as schools, hospitals, health centres and roads. There is simply not enough money to do all of that and fund the bank as well.

If that source of funding—financial transaction money—is not there after March 2021, the SNP will need to find £1.5 billion. However, instead of pausing, the Scottish Government is intent on pressing ahead to set up a bank that might not have any money. We need an urgent response from the UK Government, or we are in danger of creating a white elephant.

At stage 1, I asked whether a review had been undertaken of whether that was the most effective means of having an investment bank and whether the Government had considered working with the existing Scottish Investment Bank within Scottish Enterprise. Unsurprisingly, no review had been undertaken in advance of the bill, so there is little evidence-based policy making. I have estimated that the cost to the public purse before the bank breaks even will be £80 million; others put it higher than that. The future remains uncertain, and that is what we should concern ourselves with.

I want the bank to succeed, as the cabinet secretary does. However, I am genuinely concerned. I know that the cabinet secretary has written to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury about increasing the Government’s borrowing limits. Has he had a response or any assurance that the financial transaction money will continue? Can he offer any comfort to the chamber that we are not creating a bank with no money to spend? I would welcome an intervention from the Conservative members, telling me that everything will be okay—but they are not standing up.

Dean Lockhart rose

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a stage 3 debate on motion S5M-20514, in the name of Derek Mackay, on the Scottish National Investment Bank Bill. I invite membe...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Economy and Fair Work (Derek Mackay) SNP
I am delighted to open this stage 3 debate on the Scottish national investment bank. The Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee heard about the bank’s pote...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Derek Mackay SNP
No, thank you. The First Minister has committed to the bank’s primary mission being supporting the just transition to net zero carbon emissions. Harnessing ...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Derek Mackay SNP
No, thank you. The bill demonstrates Scotland’s ambition for transforming our economy and tackling major societal challenges. Passing the bill today will ma...
Dean Lockhart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee’s clerking team, the witnesses and all those who gave evidence during the passage of the bill. I th...
Derek Mackay SNP
Yes.
Dean Lockhart Con
I thank the cabinet secretary very much for his brief and positive answer. Following the establishment of the bank, another priority will be for the taxpaye...
Neil Findlay Lab
Dean Lockhart sat through the committee stages of the bill. It would be remiss of us not to raise concerns, which have been mentioned in the media, including...
Dean Lockhart Con
I am not sure whether Neil Findlay has seen the correspondence between the committee and the cabinet secretary, but I would encourage him to look at it, beca...
Richard Leonard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I genuinely believe that today is an important day in the history of this Parliament. A quarter of a century ago, I was calling, on behalf of the Scottish tr...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
I thank the cabinet secretary for his on-going engagement on the bill in the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee and for keeping committee members inform...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I thank all those who have contributed to the forging of the bill: the advisers, the committee, the ministers for their constructive behaviour, and Benny Hig...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be no longer than four minutes, please. 17:00
Alex Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) SNP
To pick up on one of Willie Rennie’s points, I say that the bank’s emphasis has to be on preparing Scotland for tomorrow’s world, not on dealing with the con...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Speeches should be of no more than four minutes, please. 17:05
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
We are agreed that national investment banks can play a valuable role in facilitating economic growth. I am not sure that I understood—or misunderstood—Alex ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I support having a Scottish national investment bank. It is fair to say that it has been a long time in coming. I think that John Swinney—clearly behind Rich...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Oh! There we go.
Dean Lockhart Con
I did not catch the beginning of her statement, but if Jackie Baillie is asking whether more money will be coming from the UK Government as part of the budge...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I am asking very specifically whether financial transaction money will come after March 2021 to fund the SNIB. Is it a yes or a no?
Dean Lockhart Con
The money is fungible—
Jackie Baillie Lab
Yes or no? He cannot reply.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Lockhart is speaking, Ms Baillie.
Jackie Baillie Lab
It is my speech, Presiding Officer.
Dean Lockhart Con
The money is fungible. It is up to the cabinet secretary to decide how to use the increased funding that is coming from the UK Government.
Jackie Baillie Lab
That explains why I am concerned about the continuing uncertainty. We did not hear anything to reassure us. Let me finish on a note of consensus. I am grate...
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) SNP
Jackie Baillie was actually making a good case for independence with her arguments about funding. I welcome the establishment of the Scottish national inves...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the closing speeches. 17:19