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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 21 January 2020

21 Jan 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish National Investment Bank Bill

We are agreed that national investment banks can play a valuable role in facilitating economic growth. I am not sure that I understood—or misunderstood—Alex Neil’s speech or whether he was advertising himself for a future role in promoting the Scottish national investment bank.

Investment banks can play an important and positive role, but there is a significant caveat: to do so, they have to be well run, with clear policy objectives, and they must be given relative freedom from direction by state-run interests, the public sector and national Government. That is what we see in other successful examples of such banks around the world.

Over the past decade, the Scottish Government has spoken positively about the possibility of creating a body such as the one we are discussing and about its potential role in our investment in the future of Scotland. It is therefore good that the dream has not turned into rust—unlike Richard Leonard’s paper clip—and that we have this bill before us in the Parliament.

As most of us know—I hope—in general terms, business and investment function far better when the long arm of the state does not lie heavily on their shoulders and when business leadership and expertise are able to decide the direction of travel. However, national investment bodies can make a real difference in pursuing wider public goals when they operate successfully alongside private enterprise—for example, on targets for sustainability.

Nevertheless, we must be cautious that such a body does not crowd out private finance, as we have seen happen on some occasions with certain similar bodies such as the European Investment Bank.

As Willie Rennie has emphasised, we need proper leadership for the bank. That means leadership that seeks to prevent public money being used to prop up failing ventures. We have seen too many of those, throughout history and more recently, and the massive cost that poorly placed public investment can have economically and on the taxpayer and people’s pockets.

The Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee heard evidence that the Scottish national investment bank could deliver better and more sustainable approaches to investment. I welcome its commitment to investing patient capital across a wide range of sectors—investment that will be intended for long-term prosperity and not just for aesthetically pleasing short-term gains.

As has been touched on, there is a disparity between the proposed public body, with a capitalisation of £2 billion, and the example of an existing bank, the Royal Bank of Scotland, which alone has a Scottish loan book of £14 billion. Let us hope that the bank is successful and can build on that rapidly to move beyond the £2 billion figure.

In countries such as Finland, where national investment structures are particularly good at offering instruments like debt financing to major infrastructure investors and at supporting guarantees, we have an example of a successful approach.

We would like more clarity on where the SNIB is to sit in the already-crowded landscape in Scotland, with Scottish Enterprise and the Scottish growth scheme. I would appreciate it if the cabinet secretary could give us a bit more clarity on that in his closing remarks. The bank will be joining a crowded field, and we do not want a false start for it. Let us hope that this is the start of something new, positive and constructive that we can, and will, all support.

17:10  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a stage 3 debate on motion S5M-20514, in the name of Derek Mackay, on the Scottish National Investment Bank Bill. I invite membe...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Economy and Fair Work (Derek Mackay) SNP
I am delighted to open this stage 3 debate on the Scottish national investment bank. The Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee heard about the bank’s pote...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Derek Mackay SNP
No, thank you. The First Minister has committed to the bank’s primary mission being supporting the just transition to net zero carbon emissions. Harnessing ...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Derek Mackay SNP
No, thank you. The bill demonstrates Scotland’s ambition for transforming our economy and tackling major societal challenges. Passing the bill today will ma...
Dean Lockhart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee’s clerking team, the witnesses and all those who gave evidence during the passage of the bill. I th...
Derek Mackay SNP
Yes.
Dean Lockhart Con
I thank the cabinet secretary very much for his brief and positive answer. Following the establishment of the bank, another priority will be for the taxpaye...
Neil Findlay Lab
Dean Lockhart sat through the committee stages of the bill. It would be remiss of us not to raise concerns, which have been mentioned in the media, including...
Dean Lockhart Con
I am not sure whether Neil Findlay has seen the correspondence between the committee and the cabinet secretary, but I would encourage him to look at it, beca...
Richard Leonard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I genuinely believe that today is an important day in the history of this Parliament. A quarter of a century ago, I was calling, on behalf of the Scottish tr...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
I thank the cabinet secretary for his on-going engagement on the bill in the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee and for keeping committee members inform...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I thank all those who have contributed to the forging of the bill: the advisers, the committee, the ministers for their constructive behaviour, and Benny Hig...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be no longer than four minutes, please. 17:00
Alex Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) SNP
To pick up on one of Willie Rennie’s points, I say that the bank’s emphasis has to be on preparing Scotland for tomorrow’s world, not on dealing with the con...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Speeches should be of no more than four minutes, please. 17:05
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
We are agreed that national investment banks can play a valuable role in facilitating economic growth. I am not sure that I understood—or misunderstood—Alex ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I support having a Scottish national investment bank. It is fair to say that it has been a long time in coming. I think that John Swinney—clearly behind Rich...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Oh! There we go.
Dean Lockhart Con
I did not catch the beginning of her statement, but if Jackie Baillie is asking whether more money will be coming from the UK Government as part of the budge...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I am asking very specifically whether financial transaction money will come after March 2021 to fund the SNIB. Is it a yes or a no?
Dean Lockhart Con
The money is fungible—
Jackie Baillie Lab
Yes or no? He cannot reply.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Lockhart is speaking, Ms Baillie.
Jackie Baillie Lab
It is my speech, Presiding Officer.
Dean Lockhart Con
The money is fungible. It is up to the cabinet secretary to decide how to use the increased funding that is coming from the UK Government.
Jackie Baillie Lab
That explains why I am concerned about the continuing uncertainty. We did not hear anything to reassure us. Let me finish on a note of consensus. I am grate...
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) SNP
Jackie Baillie was actually making a good case for independence with her arguments about funding. I welcome the establishment of the Scottish national inves...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the closing speeches. 17:19