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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 16 January 2020

16 Jan 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Disclosure (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

The process of disclosure rests on the ability to have both consistency and discretion so that the system is able to ensure both fairness and protection. I agree with what was said about a case against the Metropolitan Police Service:

“The proportionality of the disclosure will inevitably require balancing the rights of individuals with the potential risk to members of society ... this balancing act is ‘of the greatest public importance’.”

Putting that into legislation is obviously a delicate and complex process. The Disclosure (Scotland) Bill is the first piece of legislation that I have had the opportunity to scrutinise since being elected to the Scottish Parliament, and I am glad to begin with such an important bill.

Legislative simplification is clearly necessary. Having patchwork legislation makes life harder for practitioners and for the people who work or live under the system. The disclosure process is useful only if it is effective and it is effective only if it can be understood. I support what Scottish Women’s Aid said, which is that simplification is

“welcome but only where this allows the same, or improved, levels of disclosure, coverage and protection for vulnerable people and does not inadvertently create loopholes capable of exploitation.”

Evidence heard by the committee about inconsistencies between this bill and others that have been passed by the Scottish Parliament in the same session was, therefore, concerning. Debbie Nolan, of the Centre for Youth and Criminal Justice, noted in committee that

“if those three pieces of legislation are not fully aligned, we run the risk of the benefits not being realised”.—[Official Report, Education and Skills Committee, 13 November 2019; c 6.]

If the Government cannot produce consistency across legislation produced in the same year, an expectation of consistent decision making by practitioners will already have been undermined.

I also note the need to create a regime that is able to stand the test of time. Other parts of the reforms were passed last year under the Age of Criminal Responsibility (Scotland) Act 2019. The Government’s response to new calls from the international human rights community and to amendments from my party mean that the new age of criminal responsibility already lags behind international expectations. Social Work Scotland said:

“It is critical that Scottish Government and its agencies have a coherent and comprehensive understanding of how all these parts piece together, with systems in place for managing risks, tensions and overlaps.”

I would be grateful to hear the minister’s understanding of how that would be ensured should this Parliament step up to the plate and raise the age of criminal responsibility in the future.

The relationship between employment and a criminal record is complicated, but the potential for rehabilitation that meaningful work can offer must be recognised. Although a job in itself might not trigger desistance, the stability and responsibility that it creates may actively stop a person tending towards reoffending. Research conducted last year by Beth Weaver of the Scottish Centre for Crime and Justice Research and the University of Strathclyde found that

“barriers to work engendered by attitudes towards people with convictions and disclosure of criminal histories may destabilise efforts to desist and cut off opportunities to sustain desistance, thus ironically undermining public protection.”

An overly restrictive disclosure regime is therefore in nobody’s interest.

In a similar vein, I would be grateful for reassurance that the safeguards that will be put in place to ensure that the new offence for those who fail to secure PVG scheme membership will not be used as a heavy-handed response to bad administration. A sentence of 12 months in custody may be appropriate where there is a deliberate intention to circumvent the scheme and to target vulnerable people, but I am not convinced that that is a proportionate response to other circumstances to which it might apply, such as what Community Justice Scotland called “a lapse in paperwork”.

There have already been reports of delays to PVG scheme membership applications at Disclosure Scotland as a result of hiccups with the new information and communications technology system. The Scottish Government has responded in part to concerns, but I would be grateful for further reassurances about IT capacity in light of 1.2 million people perhaps needing to reapply for PVG scheme membership as the renewal system gets under way.

Overall, although I do not think that it is quite ready yet, the bill has the potential to make genuine, positive changes to the disclosure process. I confirm that the Scottish Liberal Democrats support its principles.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-20452, in the name of Maree Todd, on the Disclosure (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. 14:54
The Minister for Children and Young People (Maree Todd) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the Disclosure (Scotland) Bill. I thank everyone who has contributed to developing the bill so f...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
The minister’s point about how such incidents can affect future chances is very well made. However, a concern was raised about whether sufficient considerati...
Maree Todd SNP
We have given a great deal of consideration to the committee’s concerns about the disclosure of other relevant information, or ORI. I assure Mr Johnson that ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I entirely agree with the minister about the sensitivities over the issue—what she has just said is absolutely right. One issue that was put to the committ...
Maree Todd SNP
The bill proposes that an individual who requests a disclosure certificate will see the information about them that is to be disclosed before the employer do...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Clare Adamson to speak on behalf of the Education and Skills Committee. 15:07
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
As the convener of the Education and Skills Committee, I thank the committee members and the clerking team for their support during the stage 1 deliberations...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
No, no—you can have a bit of extra time if you need it. I saw you looking anxiously at the clock, but we have a little time in hand.
Clare Adamson SNP
I will conclude by reiterating that the committee supports the general principles of the bill. However, we believe that there are several areas of the bill t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
There is a little time in hand, so I will not be too restrictive on timing—within limits. 15:17
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I put on record the fact that I hold a current PVG certificate. The Disclosure (Scotland) Bill was introduced in Parliament on 12 June 2019, and it is clear...
Maree Todd SNP
Since the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 was developed, the period of disclosure has always been set from the date of conviction and based on the dispo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
That was a long intervention. I can give you extra time, Ms Smith.
Liz Smith Con
That is a welcome clarification, and I fully understand the rationale behind what the minister has just said. It is encouraging that that has been considered...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I can quite happily give you another minute or so.
Liz Smith Con
Thank you. These are important points. I turn to volunteering, which my colleague Brian Whittle will focus on. The purpose of the bill must be about trust i...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to join the welcome in the chamber for the bill, following the committee’s report. As members from other parties in the chamber will, my Labour ...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
As a PVG scheme member, I found the stage 1 process interesting. Robust and efficient safeguarding procedures are essential for protection of vulnerable grou...
Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
The process of disclosure rests on the ability to have both consistency and discretion so that the system is able to ensure both fairness and protection. I a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
That concludes the opening speeches. We move to the open debate. Speeches should be about six minutes, please. I have a little bit of time in hand for interv...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I am happy to speak in this stage 1 debate. I consider it necessary to introduce the bill at this time. Perhaps the best way to explain why is by quoting the...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I remind Parliament that I currently hold a PVG certificate, primarily because I am still active in coaching all age groups, and vulnerable groups. I am plea...
Alex Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the bill. Over the past 20 years or so, the Parliament has passed very few bills that will impact on as many people in Scotland as the Disclosure (...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I remind members to always use colleagues’ full names when they refer to them in their speeches. I know that we are all pals, but it is useful for the offici...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I thank the Education and Skills Committee for its work throughout stage 1, which has provided us with an informative stage 1 report. I also express my grati...
Jenny Gilruth (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) SNP
I thank the Education and Skills Committee clerks, the bill team and all the witnesses who provided evidence ahead of the publication of our stage 1 report. ...
Maurice Corry (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome this first stage of the Disclosure (Scotland) Bill, and I thank the members of the Education and Skills Committee and the clerks for their efforts ...
Gail Ross (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) SNP
I add my thanks to the clerks, my fellow committee members and everyone who has given evidence to the Education and Skills Committee, both in writing and in ...
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
We move to closing speeches. 16:31