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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 16 January 2020

16 Jan 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Disclosure (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Smith, Liz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

I put on record the fact that I hold a current PVG certificate.

The Disclosure (Scotland) Bill was introduced in Parliament on 12 June 2019, and it is clear that its general principles are warmly welcomed. I have heard of no concerns among stakeholders that the bill should not be happening. Indeed, it is a very bold move by the Scottish Government to try to improve and work through the complexities of the system, with all the sensitivities that go with it. Generally speaking, it is a good move. That said, the more that we look into the matter, the more complexities appear. I am not yet convinced that we have a way through some of the considerable problems, which I will come to in a minute.

The general approach of simplicity is warmly welcomed. The move away from the four different classifications that we currently have has been warmly welcomed by all the stakeholders, and the Scottish Government is right to try to address that problem. We also warmly welcome the progress towards a more digital system, which, in theory, will be more like the non-paper-based environment that we all live in today.

The minister mentioned that there is a need to recognise adolescence as a particular phase in someone’s life. I am sure that we would all agree with that. It is both important and appropriate that common sense can be applied to judgments should someone have fallen foul of the law in the past, whether they went through the justice system or the children’s hearings system.

I will address some of the fundamental problems of the bill as it stands, which I see not as party-political issues but as practical discrepancies that have been raised consistently by stakeholders—the Law Society of Scotland, Children in Scotland and Recruit with Conviction, to name but a few—throughout the past several months of evidence.

If we allow the bill to proceed beyond stage 1, as I believe we should, it is the Scottish Conservatives’ recommendation that some fundamental changes be made to avoid further complicating an already complicated landscape on what is often a sensitive issue. The committee’s report captures those concerns, and we welcome the general thrust of the comments that Clare Adamson just made.

Although a central theme of the bill is simplicity, the Scottish Government must state clearly how the Disclosure (Scotland) Bill will fit in with other primary legislation and statutory instruments. For example—this has been highlighted several times by various stakeholders—the Management of Offenders (Scotland) Act 2018 directs self-disclosure and the provision for under-18s is based on the date of conviction. The Disclosure (Scotland) Bill, however, contains provisions for state disclosure and includes provisions for a date of offence. Members will see immediately how that might have unintended consequences and cause legislative conflict. It is important that much greater thought is given to the necessary coherence of different pieces of legislation.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-20452, in the name of Maree Todd, on the Disclosure (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. 14:54
The Minister for Children and Young People (Maree Todd) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the Disclosure (Scotland) Bill. I thank everyone who has contributed to developing the bill so f...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
The minister’s point about how such incidents can affect future chances is very well made. However, a concern was raised about whether sufficient considerati...
Maree Todd SNP
We have given a great deal of consideration to the committee’s concerns about the disclosure of other relevant information, or ORI. I assure Mr Johnson that ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I entirely agree with the minister about the sensitivities over the issue—what she has just said is absolutely right. One issue that was put to the committ...
Maree Todd SNP
The bill proposes that an individual who requests a disclosure certificate will see the information about them that is to be disclosed before the employer do...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Clare Adamson to speak on behalf of the Education and Skills Committee. 15:07
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
As the convener of the Education and Skills Committee, I thank the committee members and the clerking team for their support during the stage 1 deliberations...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
No, no—you can have a bit of extra time if you need it. I saw you looking anxiously at the clock, but we have a little time in hand.
Clare Adamson SNP
I will conclude by reiterating that the committee supports the general principles of the bill. However, we believe that there are several areas of the bill t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
There is a little time in hand, so I will not be too restrictive on timing—within limits. 15:17
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I put on record the fact that I hold a current PVG certificate. The Disclosure (Scotland) Bill was introduced in Parliament on 12 June 2019, and it is clear...
Maree Todd SNP
Since the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 was developed, the period of disclosure has always been set from the date of conviction and based on the dispo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
That was a long intervention. I can give you extra time, Ms Smith.
Liz Smith Con
That is a welcome clarification, and I fully understand the rationale behind what the minister has just said. It is encouraging that that has been considered...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I can quite happily give you another minute or so.
Liz Smith Con
Thank you. These are important points. I turn to volunteering, which my colleague Brian Whittle will focus on. The purpose of the bill must be about trust i...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to join the welcome in the chamber for the bill, following the committee’s report. As members from other parties in the chamber will, my Labour ...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
As a PVG scheme member, I found the stage 1 process interesting. Robust and efficient safeguarding procedures are essential for protection of vulnerable grou...
Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
The process of disclosure rests on the ability to have both consistency and discretion so that the system is able to ensure both fairness and protection. I a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
That concludes the opening speeches. We move to the open debate. Speeches should be about six minutes, please. I have a little bit of time in hand for interv...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I am happy to speak in this stage 1 debate. I consider it necessary to introduce the bill at this time. Perhaps the best way to explain why is by quoting the...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I remind Parliament that I currently hold a PVG certificate, primarily because I am still active in coaching all age groups, and vulnerable groups. I am plea...
Alex Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the bill. Over the past 20 years or so, the Parliament has passed very few bills that will impact on as many people in Scotland as the Disclosure (...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I remind members to always use colleagues’ full names when they refer to them in their speeches. I know that we are all pals, but it is useful for the offici...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I thank the Education and Skills Committee for its work throughout stage 1, which has provided us with an informative stage 1 report. I also express my grati...
Jenny Gilruth (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) SNP
I thank the Education and Skills Committee clerks, the bill team and all the witnesses who provided evidence ahead of the publication of our stage 1 report. ...
Maurice Corry (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome this first stage of the Disclosure (Scotland) Bill, and I thank the members of the Education and Skills Committee and the clerks for their efforts ...
Gail Ross (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) SNP
I add my thanks to the clerks, my fellow committee members and everyone who has given evidence to the Education and Skills Committee, both in writing and in ...
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
We move to closing speeches. 16:31