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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 14 January 2020

14 Jan 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Improving the Lives of Gypsy Travellers

I thank colleagues for their contributions thus far in the debate. It is a topic of great interest and passion to many; that is evident from the speeches that we have heard.

As a former member of this Parliament’s Equalities and Human Rights Committee, I know that this Parliament—and many of its members right across the political spectrum—takes the issue seriously; and I do not doubt the genuine desire among members who have spoken today to improve outcomes for Gypsy Travellers right across Scotland.

I also welcome those who join us in the public gallery, and those who are watching the debate online or otherwise—Christina McKelvie is right that this is their Parliament. I get the impression that the issue of improving the lives of Gypsy Travellers is a long-standing one that has been debated many times both within and outwith the walls of this Parliament. I have participated in some of those debates, and, in the few years that I have sat in this chamber, the overall tone of the debate around the issue has improved vastly. I also get the impression that, previously, there were accusations of lots of warm words, but not enough action, from politicians. That is why, as I listened to the minister today, I was pleased that it feels like much action has been taken—and positive action at that.

This is an important debate to have in general because, as others have said, the Gypsy Traveller community in Scotland is a vital part of our history and culture. As Alex Cole-Hamilton so eloquently illustrated in his speech, the historic nature of their involvement in Scottish society has often been overlooked. However, most people’s views and opinions are formed on the basis of recent and modern, rather than ancient, history. The Gypsy Traveller community finds itself specifically at risk of abuse and aggression and such like, because of a basic and—perhaps—fundamental lack of understanding of its way of life today, not as it used to be. Herein lies the cause of how we got to where we are: generations of negativity, born—often—of a lack of willingness to engage with that community.

I am happy to put on record that there is no place whatever for racial or cultural discrimination anywhere in Scotland, towards any community—in politics, in the media or otherwise. However, that requires education and mutual respect. That involves all communities, including “settled communities”—I will use that phrase, although I am aware that many Travellers are in settled communities—coming together to find compromise where compromise is possible. There is also a need to foster improvement in relations and relationships between communities, which may—in some cases—require difficult decisions about putting the past behind us.

Members will have received from Amnesty International a very helpful briefing that puts forward propositions to ensure that this Parliament removes some of the barriers to healthcare, education and housing, and tackles the general discrimination that is faced in employment and in the workplace. The comments are interesting; I read them with great interest, and I thank Amnesty International for its input. One of the specific calls in its briefing is that legislation should allow for self-identification of communities and individuals. Although the minister touched briefly on that point at the beginning of the debate, I would be keen to hear more in her closing speech about what her interpretation of that request is, and whether the Government will take any specific action on it.

I think that we all know—this is a well-rehearsed point—the extent to which Gypsy Travellers face discrimination in public life and the media. To give the chamber a flavour of some of the findings that the Amnesty briefing presents, 48 per cent—nearly half—of all news stories about Gypsy Travellers were negative, and just 25 per cent were positive.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-20404, in the name of Christina McKelvie, on improving the lives of Gypsy Travellers. Members who wish to...
The Minister for Older People and Equalities (Christina McKelvie) SNP
The Presiding Officer has given me a promotion.
The Presiding Officer NPA
I apologise. I meant to say “the minister”. 14:25
The Minister for Older People and Equalities (Christina McKelvie) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am delighted to bring the motion to the chamber for debate. This is an important opportunity for members of all parties to co...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
I am grateful to the minister for taking an intervention. I am delighted to hear her use the words “home” and “accommodation”. Does she agree that that is ve...
Christina McKelvie SNP
I am pleased, and members will hear much more about the change in language. We identified that we needed to ask whether our policy demonstrated, in its langu...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am grateful to the minister for taking an intervention on that. The minister will be aware that each local authority has a Gypsy Traveller liaison officer....
Christina McKelvie SNP
Absolutely. We have already been working with the Gypsy Traveller liaison officers in order that they can feed into and be an integral part of the process. T...
Mary Fee Lab
That would be helpful.
Christina McKelvie SNP
I will be happy to update Mary Fee as soon as I can. Alongside the local leaders network, the Scottish Government will work with the Gypsy Traveller communi...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I thank the Scottish Government for bringing forward this important and timely debate on Gypsy Travellers and how we can support them. I commend Christina Mc...
John Finnie Green
The member mentioned the nomadic lifestyle, which is not just within the boundaries of Scotland but outwith them. I hope that the member will mention the con...
Annie Wells Con
I will reflect on what the minister said and write to her with my views on that. Regardless of their language, customs or everyday way of life, every group ...
The Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning (Kevin Stewart) SNP
I am glad that Ms Wells says that none of us wants any attack on the Gypsy Traveller community. However, I am concerned about the fact that racism is often e...
Annie Wells Con
I make the commitment today that any form of racism or discrimination would not be tolerated by the Scottish Conservatives. The impact of on-going discrimin...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As a long-term advocate for Gypsy Travellers, I am delighted that such an important debate is taking place. In opening for Scottish Labour, I thank the Scott...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call John Finnie to open the debate for the Scottish Green Party. 15:00
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
I join other members in thanking the Scottish Government for bringing the debate to the chamber, and the minister for her opening speech. Indeed, I thank bot...
Kevin Stewart SNP
I will intervene briefly to do so. I say to Mr Finnie that Mr Russell is regularly on at me about the situation in Argyll and Bute. Mr Finnie is right to poi...
John Finnie Green
I have been at the minister’s door a few times and I have always had a courteous listening. In relation to the situation that I mentioned, I do not know whet...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
You can have another couple of minutes, if you like.
John Finnie Green
That is very kind of you. People will be aware of the abuse that the Roma community is putting up with across Europe, and the draconian laws that are being ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Alex Cole-Hamilton. You have a generous six, seven or eight minutes. 15:09
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
You are always generous, Presiding Officer. I am very grateful to the Government for bringing its motion to the Parliament today and for the publication of ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of around six minutes, please, but we have a little time in hand for interventions, if members would like to t...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
As has been the case with other members, it gives me great pleasure to speak in this afternoon’s debate on Scotland’s Gypsy Travellers. I welcome the publica...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank colleagues for their contributions thus far in the debate. It is a topic of great interest and passion to many; that is evident from the speeches tha...
Kevin Stewart SNP
Will Jamie Greene give way?
Jamie Greene Con
I will give way in a second; I would like to paint a picture of the landscape first. In 38 per cent of stories, a connection to criminality was made, and 3...
Kevin Stewart SNP
As Mr Finnie has already highlighted, many media outlets have an agenda when it comes to dealing with Gypsy Traveller issues. However, I point out that they ...