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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 December 2019

19 Dec 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Referendums (Scotland) Bill

I think that we would all have wanted more time for the Electoral Commission to give its agreement to the bill. That is one example, and it is very sad that that has not occurred.

I would ask why record-breaking speed was used for a bill that no one wants and what devolved matter is so pressing that it requires a referendum. However, such questions would, of course, be rhetorical, because we all know the answer. The bill is yet another fig leaf for the SNP’s eternal quest to break up the United Kingdom, and that will remain an eternal quest. Scotland said no in 2014 and nothing—I repeat, nothing—has changed since then to give cause for another such question. Only its interpretation of the numbers gives the SNP the belief that it has a mandate—an interpretation that is matched only by its education failings in maths.

I therefore have one question for the cabinet secretary, which concerns the method for declaring the winner of any referendum. My understanding is that referendums are decided on the total number of votes cast across the whole of the electoral region. Last week, the SNP won the most seats in Scotland due to the vagaries of the first-past-the-post system. However, it claims majority support, despite 55 per cent of Scotland voting against the SNP and its wish for separation. Can the cabinet secretary confirm that the result of a future referendum in Scotland will be decided on the majority of voters and not the 32 counting areas?

In other parts of the bill, we have supported proposed changes, but they have not gone far enough. The role of the Electoral Commission remains insufficiently strong and the manner in which the cabinet secretary has tried to hijack so many parts of the process has more in common with third-world dictatorships than with the transparent democracy of the United Kingdom. Of course, the SNP is pushing the bill through today only because it told its nationalist extremists that it would get the bill through Parliament by the end of the year. That is simply not good enough, and Scotland deserves better. I am proud to say that I will not be supporting the bill today and I know that my constituents will thank me for it.

We must start prioritising what is important: education, the NHS, police, nurses, climate change, welfare, local government, our communities, jobs and the economy—take your pick. We are here today talking about the constitution only because the SNP is failing on everything else. We must hope that the new year brings the change that Scotland wants.

16:08  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-20237, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Referendums (Scotland) Bill at stage 3.
The Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations (Michael Russell) SNP
I thank all those who have been involved in shaping and developing the bill over the past few months. I am very grateful to the bill team, which has done a t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Excuse me, cabinet secretary. I say to all members that Parliament has resumed, so no private conversations should be going on and no backs should be turned ...
Michael Russell SNP
It is perfectly possible to shape and develop a bill in a way that makes it better. That has happened in the case of this bill, and I am grateful to each mem...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I believe that the cabinet secretary has said that there are no plans to have any referendum other than one on Scotland’s constitutional future. I accept the...
Michael Russell SNP
I will address that question in two ways. First, the bill does not create a Scottish independence referendum—no ifs, no buts. It puts in place a framework, w...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the cabinet secretary make it clear that the only reason he foresees using the legislation is for an independence referendum?
Michael Russell SNP
I have never said that. In fact, I gave evidence to the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, which Mr Simpson convenes, on other areas in which I thoug...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
We all know the reality, Presiding Officer. This was not intended, and never was intended, by the Scottish National Party to be a framework bill for all refe...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
Does Adam Tomkins not agree that people can change their mind, as Jackson Carlaw did on his position regarding Brexit?
Adam Tomkins Con
I take the First Minister at her word. I would have thought that, as a very loyal servant of the First Minister, the member would do the same. The First Mini...
Patrick Harvie Green
Will the member give way?
Adam Tomkins Con
I will happily give way to Mr Harvie in one minute. If we are really to have a legislative framework for referendums, we surely need to have some grasp of w...
Patrick Harvie Green
Those are important questions, but would it not be regrettable if we were to pass framework legislation that took a restrictive view? For example, the bill a...
Adam Tomkins Con
That is right. There is a degree of flexibility about that. However, it does not address the critical question, which, as Michael Russell said in his opening...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Come to a close, please.
Adam Tomkins Con
—which was delivered by Her Majesty from the throne in the House of Lords this afternoon, made it perfectly clear that this people’s Government will not allo...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
In opening the debate for Scottish Labour at stage 1, I said that “If we, as a country, were to want to move to a more direct democracy in which referendums...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in favour of the bill, which I do confident in the knowledge that pretty much no serious evidence was submitted...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
MSPs from all across the chamber should be here to speak in support of a non-controversial technical bill to manage the detail of referendums that might take...
Patrick Harvie Green
Will the member take an intervention?
Mike Rumbles LD
I am afraid that I have only four minutes. Patrick Harvie complained earlier about my use of the phrase “mask of nationalism”, but it is an apt phrase. Mr H...
Patrick Harvie Green
Will the member give way?
Mike Rumbles LD
Because I have more time, I will give way.
Patrick Harvie Green
I say, with the best will in the world, that I would not call Mike Rumbles a British nationalist, and he would not thank me if I did. Would he please pay the...
Mike Rumbles LD
No, because that is exactly what the Green Party is—a nationalist party. It is amazing that it pretends that it is not a nationalist party. The Scottish Gov...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
I want to do two things in the time that we have available for today’s important debate. Before I do that, I note that I am disappointed in the boorish and r...
Alexander Burnett (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Con
We could have been spending the last moments of this year in Parliament debating something that is important to the majority of people in Scotland. We could ...
Bruce Crawford SNP
Can Alexander Burnett give us an example of where the committee failed in the parliamentary scrutiny process or, indeed, where extra time should have been bu...
Alexander Burnett Con
I think that we would all have wanted more time for the Electoral Commission to give its agreement to the bill. That is one example, and it is very sad that ...