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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 December 2019

19 Dec 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Referendums (Scotland) Bill

It is perfectly possible to shape and develop a bill in a way that makes it better. That has happened in the case of this bill, and I am grateful to each member who has done that.

As we come to the conclusion of this process, I hope that today’s debate will perhaps restore some harmony, which has been somewhat damaged by the proceedings that took place earlier. We have worked very hard to move towards the resolution of the one significant difficulty that existed, and I think that we are now there.

Ensuring that elections and referendums are run to the highest standards is central to any democracy. The rules by which electoral events are run should be clear and well understood and should promote open and inclusive debate. When we look at the damage that has been done to democracy in recent months and years by the European referendum, we sometimes wonder whether we can recover from that. Referendums do not need to be divisive; indeed, many people’s experiences of the 2014 referendum were positive. I hope that we can move forward in a positive spirit to any future referendums in Scotland.

If we do so, it is important that the rules for any referendums that are held on devolved matters are specifically suited to Scotland and are debated and agreed by this Parliament. The bill therefore addresses a specific gap in the devolved legislative landscape. The purpose of the bill is to put in place a standing framework of conduct and campaign rules that could be applied to any national referendum on a devolved subject matter. My intention at the outset was to ensure that those rules meet the highest standards of electoral administration and regulation and that they reflect international best practice. That will ensure that the debate on a future referendum concentrates on the merit of the question, not on the nature of the poll. I again give my thanks to those who have helped that to happen.

I also express my thanks to the electoral community in Scotland, which has provided expert advice on the policy and technical issues that are raised by the bill. I first showed a slightly unnatural interest in electoral matters when I was a member of the Arbuthnott commission on voting systems and boundaries, more than 15 years ago. I remain very interested in electoral law and regulation. We are well served, by and large, by the electoral community in Scotland, which engaged fully in the bill, and will continue to engage in the work that will be required to make it real.

I am open to continuing to consider some issues. As elements of the bill move forward, I am sure that the electoral community and others will want to ensure that they build on the success of the bill in order to make it a reality when it is required. Changes to the framework can be triggered by a process that is set out in the bill. We have limited that process, but it is possible to have dynamic legislation on elections, and I believe that we have now achieved that.

We have further changes to make to the Scottish Elections (Franchise and Representation) Bill, which is going through Parliament. At the conclusion of that process, we will have a system that is very much fit for purpose and which is inclusive and allows all voters to participate. The technical adjustments that we have made to the Referendums (Scotland) Bill add greatly to achieving that system.

There are issues that we have not been able to resolve in the bill, and issues that have been only partially addressed.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-20237, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Referendums (Scotland) Bill at stage 3.
The Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations (Michael Russell) SNP
I thank all those who have been involved in shaping and developing the bill over the past few months. I am very grateful to the bill team, which has done a t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Excuse me, cabinet secretary. I say to all members that Parliament has resumed, so no private conversations should be going on and no backs should be turned ...
Michael Russell SNP
It is perfectly possible to shape and develop a bill in a way that makes it better. That has happened in the case of this bill, and I am grateful to each mem...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I believe that the cabinet secretary has said that there are no plans to have any referendum other than one on Scotland’s constitutional future. I accept the...
Michael Russell SNP
I will address that question in two ways. First, the bill does not create a Scottish independence referendum—no ifs, no buts. It puts in place a framework, w...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the cabinet secretary make it clear that the only reason he foresees using the legislation is for an independence referendum?
Michael Russell SNP
I have never said that. In fact, I gave evidence to the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, which Mr Simpson convenes, on other areas in which I thoug...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
We all know the reality, Presiding Officer. This was not intended, and never was intended, by the Scottish National Party to be a framework bill for all refe...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
Does Adam Tomkins not agree that people can change their mind, as Jackson Carlaw did on his position regarding Brexit?
Adam Tomkins Con
I take the First Minister at her word. I would have thought that, as a very loyal servant of the First Minister, the member would do the same. The First Mini...
Patrick Harvie Green
Will the member give way?
Adam Tomkins Con
I will happily give way to Mr Harvie in one minute. If we are really to have a legislative framework for referendums, we surely need to have some grasp of w...
Patrick Harvie Green
Those are important questions, but would it not be regrettable if we were to pass framework legislation that took a restrictive view? For example, the bill a...
Adam Tomkins Con
That is right. There is a degree of flexibility about that. However, it does not address the critical question, which, as Michael Russell said in his opening...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Come to a close, please.
Adam Tomkins Con
—which was delivered by Her Majesty from the throne in the House of Lords this afternoon, made it perfectly clear that this people’s Government will not allo...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
In opening the debate for Scottish Labour at stage 1, I said that “If we, as a country, were to want to move to a more direct democracy in which referendums...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in favour of the bill, which I do confident in the knowledge that pretty much no serious evidence was submitted...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
MSPs from all across the chamber should be here to speak in support of a non-controversial technical bill to manage the detail of referendums that might take...
Patrick Harvie Green
Will the member take an intervention?
Mike Rumbles LD
I am afraid that I have only four minutes. Patrick Harvie complained earlier about my use of the phrase “mask of nationalism”, but it is an apt phrase. Mr H...
Patrick Harvie Green
Will the member give way?
Mike Rumbles LD
Because I have more time, I will give way.
Patrick Harvie Green
I say, with the best will in the world, that I would not call Mike Rumbles a British nationalist, and he would not thank me if I did. Would he please pay the...
Mike Rumbles LD
No, because that is exactly what the Green Party is—a nationalist party. It is amazing that it pretends that it is not a nationalist party. The Scottish Gov...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
I want to do two things in the time that we have available for today’s important debate. Before I do that, I note that I am disappointed in the boorish and r...
Alexander Burnett (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Con
We could have been spending the last moments of this year in Parliament debating something that is important to the majority of people in Scotland. We could ...
Bruce Crawford SNP
Can Alexander Burnett give us an example of where the committee failed in the parliamentary scrutiny process or, indeed, where extra time should have been bu...
Alexander Burnett Con
I think that we would all have wanted more time for the Electoral Commission to give its agreement to the bill. That is one example, and it is very sad that ...