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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 13 November 2019

13 Nov 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Artificial Intelligence and Data-Driven Technologies
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

Thank you for making that invitation, Presiding Officer.

I welcome these debates for no less a reason than the one that Emma Harper just demonstrated: they provide us with an excuse to cite “Star Trek” without embarrassment. Patrick Harvie is laughing; however, I know that when he was describing his iPhone, he had in his mind a “Star Trek” data PADD.

Some of the dilemmas that are faced in science fiction are the very debates and dilemmas that we are considering today. However, they are also age-old dilemmas, because we have been facing the consequences of technology since we came into being. That can be seen from the invention of the wheel—a bit of technology that meant that we no longer had to rely on what we could lift on our back to carry items around with us—to the printing press, where a machine enabled us to print, almost instantaneously, a page that it would have taken a scribe an hour or so to produce. Then there is the computer, which used to be a person rather than a machine.

We have always had to deal with the consequences of technology change, and that technology change has invariably taken labour away from people and given it to machines. However, there is a difference now, and we need to be careful. Some people out there say that we have always had to deal with such change and that there is nothing new about it, but the pace and scope of the change are new. We have never before faced technologies that replace almost the entire supply chain or the complete scope of a human activity. That is the prospect that we are looking at with AI. We are looking at technology that has moved from robots that simply make widgets to algorithms that can analyse and plan, and we see jobs in accountancy and law, for example, being taken over by machines.

As well as looking at the what, we need to look at how the technology is replacing activities. Many members have talked about AI and automation, but nobody has really talked about machine learning. There are real challenges with machine learning. Artificial intelligence can learn to do things and carry out tasks very efficiently, but it cannot necessarily describe its own rules and algorithms, which it uses to do them. That is one of the defining aspects of machine learning. Previously, we were able to have accountability and to explain how things were done, but one of the key challenges with AI is that we might not be able to do that.

As many members have articulated, we need to ensure that we maximise opportunities. We need to minimise the impacts, but we also need to look at the new elements and issues that AI and machine learning throw up. Above all else, we need to ensure that we facilitate the transition. I will speak briefly about the three key elements that we need to focus on in relation to the transition.

My colleague Rhoda Grant outlined the vital importance of having a robust industrial strategy with AI at its core and serious investment at its heart. We should consider the industrial change that we have experienced in the recent past. We have got things wrong in failing to invest in new technologies. We lost heavy industries in Scotland because this country failed to invest in new technologies as they came in. That is why people lost their jobs.

Investments in much technology change, from GPS and satellites to the algorithms that allow phones to recognise people’s speech, were backed by state investment. We will be able to embrace the technology only by having a serious industrial strategy that is backed by state investment that can absorb the risks that individual companies cannot absorb.

Likewise, we must ensure that our people have skills. A number of members have talked about the skills that are imparted in school, for example. It is not just a matter of what skills our people have; it is also a matter of their ability to reskill time and again. It is critical that we stop viewing education as a linear pathway through life—a number of members have alluded to that. The reality is that, with the pace and nature of change, people will have to skill and reskill multiple times through their working lives. There cannot be apprenticeships that people can take only once in their career or undergraduate degrees that will be paid for only once. We need to look fundamentally at our education system to ensure that people can skill and reskill.

We also need to look at the impact on the state.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-19822, in the name of Kate Forbes, on artificial intelligence and data-driven technologies: opportunities...
The Minister for Public Finance and Digital Economy (Kate Forbes) SNP
I am pleased to be in the chamber today to debate the topic of artificial intelligence and data-driven technologies and the opportunities that they offer to ...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
We have to be careful to be clear that not all the fears are unwarranted.
Kate Forbes SNP
Absolutely. I do not disagree with that, nor would I say that all the hype is unwarranted either. That is why in the debate and in the strategy we are trying...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I agree that there are clearly economic opportunities, but to take them our people need to have the right skills. In that regard, can the minister comment on...
Kate Forbes SNP
Daniel Johnson is right to identify the need for skills in that area, but it goes much further than that. Although we need people to have the skills to be ab...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
On the argument about the increasing capabilities that we will have if we share data in a smart way—whether in Government and public services or in the priva...
Kate Forbes SNP
There are two answers to that, neither of which is simple or straightforward. The first is about raising awareness and having a genuine discussion about what...
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
Did the principles that the minister is outlining play a role in producing the new social services database and future Government information systems?
Kate Forbes SNP
Yes—very much so. A key plank in the development of Government policy in that area has been data and our discussions about the ethical elements, as well as t...
Dean Lockhart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Today’s debate on artificial intelligence and data-driven technologies is important. At decision time, we will support the Scottish Government motion. We ha...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I very much agree with what Dean Lockhart is saying, but does he also recognise that it is important to get a representative set of people and occurrences fo...
Dean Lockhart Con
Stewart Stevenson makes a very good point. The outcome of predictive measurement is only as good as the underlying data. Machine learning can help to improve...
Patrick Harvie Green
I welcome the fact that the UK Government is at least exploring the ethical dimensions of the issue. Does the member feel comfortable with its current positi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
I can allow you to speak for up to eight and a half minutes, Mr Lockhart.
Dean Lockhart Con
Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. The point is that regulation of AI has to be done on a multilateral, multinational basis. The UK Government is talki...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
Although the debate is likely to be interesting, it is yet another on one section of the Scottish economy. Developments such as AI do not happen in a vacuum;...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I welcome the fact that the debate has been brought to the chamber. Politics can be very short term. Perhaps especially during an election campaign, we are a...
Kate Forbes SNP
What does Patrick Harvie think of the international dimensions to development of such a framework? Many of the biggest tech companies are not based here, so ...
Patrick Harvie Green
The location of the tech companies is only one of the problems. The fact that some of them appear to be run by sociopathic billionaires is a much deeper prob...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I am grateful to the minister for securing time for the debate. I am not convinced that any of us understand the full magnitude of the changes that Al and da...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We now move to the open debate, with speeches of six minutes, please. 15:26
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to be able to speak about such a fascinating topic once again, having led a members’ business debate early last year on artificial intelligence....
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
The potential and indeed current effects that artificial intelligence and its attendant advantages will have on the economy have been well documented and ext...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
When we think of artificial intelligence, we often think of synthetic life forms, such as the character Data from “Star Trek” or the Terminator, but in 2019,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Everyone has been very disciplined, so I have a little bit of time in hand. If anybody wishes to intervene, and the intervention is accepted, I can make the ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Thank you for making that invitation, Presiding Officer. I welcome these debates for no less a reason than the one that Emma Harper just demonstrated: they ...
Emma Harper SNP
I have a question about reskilling and undergraduates. Does Daniel Johnson recognise that the Scottish Government has the Scottish graduate entry medicine pr...
Daniel Johnson Lab
That is a good example of facilitating reskilling, but it is one very small example. We need to embrace the fact that many people across multiple disciplines...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) SNP
When I graduated from computer science—some time ago, it has to be said—computers of any significance were the size of a big room, and programmes were keyed ...