Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 07 November 2019
07 Nov 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Referendums (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
In a few moments.
Those are big decisions, and the process for making them deserves—indeed, demands—the fullest scrutiny. That is why passing a bill, rather than just having Mr Russell click his fingers, should be a mandatory requirement for any referendum. I will give way in one second, but I say to Mr Russell that referendums are about enhancing democracy; they are not about augmenting ministerial powers to rule by diktat. Section 1 of his bill is badly misconceived, and it should be removed.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-19743, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Referendums (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. 14:21
The Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations (Michael Russell)
SNP
I thank the Finance and Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee for their consideration of the bill. I thank their conveners...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Michael Russell
SNP
If I can be allowed to make a little progress beyond the first paragraph, that would be helpful. The Scottish Government will provide a response to the lead...
Adam Tomkins
Con
In his opening remarks, the cabinet secretary talked about the courtesy of the Finance and Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Com...
Michael Russell
SNP
I am sorry that Adam Tomkins did not listen to the paragraph that I have just read, because it gave the answer to his question. The Scottish Government will ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Before the cabinet secretary moves on, will he give us examples of other referenda that might happen? What type of issues might be covered?
Michael Russell
SNP
A number of examples were, of course, given during the discussion of the matter in the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, of which Neil Findlay is a ...
Neil Findlay
Lab
I am not a member of it.
Michael Russell
SNP
Mr Findlay should allow me to finish. They were also laid out in the discussion in the Finance and Constitution Committee. For example, a range of issues mig...
Michael Russell
SNP
A man of such imagination as Mr Findlay, and Mr Tomkins and Mr Rumbles, who have now risen, will have proposals. I have no idea what they are, but I welcome ...
Adam Tomkins
Con
In response to Mr Findlay’s question, the cabinet secretary talked about referendum proposals from the citizens assembly. Why is there no provision in the bi...
Michael Russell
SNP
Because the assembly has made no such proposals, and it is only just under way. Were it to make proposals, they could be fed in through the Government or by ...
Mike Rumbles
LD
I thank the cabinet secretary for giving way. I am not a member of the Finance and Constitution Committee and neither are any of my Liberal Democrat colleagu...
Michael Russell
SNP
I said that there were discussions; I did not say that I set out examples. I commend the wonderful Official Report of those committee meetings. They will con...
Neil Findlay
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Michael Russell
SNP
No, I am almost finished. The bill seeks to establish a high-quality set of rules developed specifically for Scotland, which will ensure that the conduct of...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I call Bruce Crawford, convener of the Finance and Constitution Committee, to speak on behalf of the committee. 14:35
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP)
SNP
One of the ambitions of Scottish devolution was to create a new politics based on a much more consensual approach rather than the more adversarial style of p...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
Let me open with a quote: “We have never hidden the fact that I see this bill being used by the Parliament and the Government to create the referendum for i...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Adam Tomkins
Con
I will do so in a minute. For that reason we will oppose this unwanted referendums bill at every stage, including in the stage 1 vote this evening. We will ...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Will the member take an intervention before he gets to the detail?
Adam Tomkins
Con
Not at the moment. Not only is the SNP trying to steamroller us into a second independence referendum; it is trying to rig that referendum by playing fast a...
Michael Russell
SNP
Will the member give way?
Adam Tomkins
Con
In a few moments. Those are big decisions, and the process for making them deserves—indeed, demands—the fullest scrutiny. That is why passing a bill, rather...
Michael Russell
SNP
It is disappointing that the member, who is a professor of constitutional law, does not know that secondary legislation is not about clicking fingers—but we ...
Adam Tomkins
Con
How does it enhance democracy for this Parliament not to be allowed to debate whether there should be any future referendum? That is the question before us t...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
In opening for Labour, I acknowledge the work of the Finance and Constitution Committee in holding evidence sessions and producing a report for the stage 1 d...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
It is clear that Alex Rowley has concerns and disagrees with those of us who support independence on the idea of more constitutional referendums. However, di...