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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 07 November 2019

07 Nov 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Referendums (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I said that there were discussions; I did not say that I set out examples. I commend the wonderful Official Report of those committee meetings. They will contain all the information that Mike Rumbles seeks, and I am sure that he will find the time to peruse it.

I turn to the recommendations concerning the campaign rules. The experience of the 2016 European Union referendum demonstrated that campaigning is changing, and not always in a way that benefits voters. If we are to provide the space for rational, respectful debate of the type that has just been demonstrated, we must change our approach to regulating campaigning.

A key area of development is the transparency of online campaign materials. In 2014, Scotland led the way by mandating that online campaign materials needed to have an imprint showing the name and address of the person who was responsible for the material. The experience of innovating in that area provided valuable information about how to improve the approach.

The bill builds on the experience of 2014 by focusing regulation more closely on campaign material itself. I welcome the committee’s support for changes to the imprint rules, and intend to lodge amendments to make a number of adjustments to those provisions. Those adjustments, taken alongside other changes to the enforcement regime, will give the Electoral Commission additional regulatory tools. It will then be able to focus more closely on monitoring campaign activity.

In particular, I intend to remove the “reasonably practicable” exemption for campaign material, which will incentivise online companies to continue to innovate to ensure that material can always be clearly identified as campaign material.

I have also carefully considered the other recommendations regarding excluding individual opinions from the scope of the provision. I intend to lodge an amendment to exempt personal opinion from the imprint rules and, therefore, focus the imprint requirement more closely on campaigners. That will ensure that individuals are not deterred from participating.

Another key element of the regulatory regime is the penalties that can be applied. When I gave evidence to the Finance and Constitution Committee, I said that a major increase in the maximum civil fine was required. I intend to lodge an amendment at stage 2 to increase the maximum fine from £10,000 to £500,000, which indicates the seriousness with which the matter is taken. That will significantly strengthen the powers of the commission and act as a deterrent to breaches of the rules.

I also intend to accept other recommendations made by the commission to change the procedure for some offences in the bill. Taken together, the changes will help to deter those who might consider breaking the rules and ensure that those who break the rules are suitably sanctioned. The experience in the 2014 Scottish referendum was positive, but it was not positive in the 2016 United Kingdom-EU referendum.

The Electoral Commission has made a number of recommendations on donations, including on the frequency of reporting and assets held. However, from discussions with the commission, I understand that further work needs to be undertaken before it is able to recommend a specific set of measures. We will continue to work with it on those matters, and we look forward to developing further refinements when appropriate.

With that in mind, I am heartened that the committee supports the objective of ensuring that the bill remains a dynamic framework that can be responsive to changes in campaigning and electoral administration. The provision in section 37 addresses a specific concern of the electoral community, but I accept the recommendation of the committee to consider how to narrow the breadth of that delegated power. I will lodge a suitable amendment at stage 2.

I turn to the one area in which the committee and I have a difference in opinion. We all believe that all questions should be tested before use. That was the case in the only referendum for which this Parliament has so far taken responsibility, and the process resulted in the changing of the proposed question for the 2014 independence referendum. That question was used not only on 18 September 2014, but in 58 opinion polls over the past five years since then. Polling evidence from Progress Scotland shows that the question is well recognised and regarded as fair. Moreover, 77 per cent of respondents in a recent poll said that they would be satisfied if it was asked again, and only 10 per cent disagreed with that.

However, questions will go out of use and require to be altered as time passes. Therefore, questions should have a shelf life, which might be the duration of two parliamentary sessions. I will lodge an amendment to achieve that at stage 2. [Interruption.] I think that members should wait until I have concluded.

Some of those who propose testing every question, even those that have been tested before, do so out of principle, which I respect. I entirely accept that it is right for me to look at the issue again in the light of those views and the evidence that the finance committee has received. I am therefore in agreement with the committee that I should discuss this matter with the Electoral Commission and come back at stage 2 with any proposals that may arise from those discussions. I am happy to commit myself to doing so in the spirit of trying to reach an agreement that will be acceptable to those who take a positive view of the bill and want it to go forward with the widest support, which I certainly do.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-19743, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Referendums (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. 14:21
The Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations (Michael Russell) SNP
I thank the Finance and Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee for their consideration of the bill. I thank their conveners...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Michael Russell SNP
If I can be allowed to make a little progress beyond the first paragraph, that would be helpful. The Scottish Government will provide a response to the lead...
Adam Tomkins Con
In his opening remarks, the cabinet secretary talked about the courtesy of the Finance and Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Com...
Michael Russell SNP
I am sorry that Adam Tomkins did not listen to the paragraph that I have just read, because it gave the answer to his question. The Scottish Government will ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Before the cabinet secretary moves on, will he give us examples of other referenda that might happen? What type of issues might be covered?
Michael Russell SNP
A number of examples were, of course, given during the discussion of the matter in the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, of which Neil Findlay is a ...
Neil Findlay Lab
I am not a member of it.
Michael Russell SNP
Mr Findlay should allow me to finish. They were also laid out in the discussion in the Finance and Constitution Committee. For example, a range of issues mig...
Michael Russell SNP
A man of such imagination as Mr Findlay, and Mr Tomkins and Mr Rumbles, who have now risen, will have proposals. I have no idea what they are, but I welcome ...
Adam Tomkins Con
In response to Mr Findlay’s question, the cabinet secretary talked about referendum proposals from the citizens assembly. Why is there no provision in the bi...
Michael Russell SNP
Because the assembly has made no such proposals, and it is only just under way. Were it to make proposals, they could be fed in through the Government or by ...
Mike Rumbles LD
I thank the cabinet secretary for giving way. I am not a member of the Finance and Constitution Committee and neither are any of my Liberal Democrat colleagu...
Michael Russell SNP
I said that there were discussions; I did not say that I set out examples. I commend the wonderful Official Report of those committee meetings. They will con...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Michael Russell SNP
No, I am almost finished. The bill seeks to establish a high-quality set of rules developed specifically for Scotland, which will ensure that the conduct of...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Bruce Crawford, convener of the Finance and Constitution Committee, to speak on behalf of the committee. 14:35
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP) SNP
One of the ambitions of Scottish devolution was to create a new politics based on a much more consensual approach rather than the more adversarial style of p...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Let me open with a quote: “We have never hidden the fact that I see this bill being used by the Parliament and the Government to create the referendum for i...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Adam Tomkins Con
I will do so in a minute. For that reason we will oppose this unwanted referendums bill at every stage, including in the stage 1 vote this evening. We will ...
Stewart Stevenson SNP
Will the member take an intervention before he gets to the detail?
Adam Tomkins Con
Not at the moment. Not only is the SNP trying to steamroller us into a second independence referendum; it is trying to rig that referendum by playing fast a...
Michael Russell SNP
Will the member give way?
Adam Tomkins Con
In a few moments. Those are big decisions, and the process for making them deserves—indeed, demands—the fullest scrutiny. That is why passing a bill, rather...
Michael Russell SNP
It is disappointing that the member, who is a professor of constitutional law, does not know that secondary legislation is not about clicking fingers—but we ...
Adam Tomkins Con
How does it enhance democracy for this Parliament not to be allowed to debate whether there should be any future referendum? That is the question before us t...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
In opening for Labour, I acknowledge the work of the Finance and Constitution Committee in holding evidence sessions and producing a report for the stage 1 d...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
It is clear that Alex Rowley has concerns and disagrees with those of us who support independence on the idea of more constitutional referendums. However, di...