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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 30 October 2019

30 Oct 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Glasgow School of Art Fire

I acknowledge Stuart McMillan’s point that, fortunately, no one lost their life in the fires. A committee report such as the one that we are considering should not have been necessary but, as I said in my opening speech, it is an excellent report that has done a lot of service to the issue and has asked some burning questions to which we still need answers.

I believe that the case for a public inquiry is well made. If I was not convinced of that before, after listening to members I certainly am now. There are too many unanswered questions about what caused the fire and the management of the school. I do not say this lightly, but the only way in which we will get to the bottom of the issue is to have a public inquiry.

Annabelle Ewing made important points in her excellent contribution. It is extraordinary that the management of a public institution would not let a committee of the Parliament have sight of its insurance policy—who do they think they are? A message must go out that that is not acceptable. We are not considering the issue to give ourselves something to do; we are doing it because that is our job. It is our job to hold institutions to account and to show the general public that we are doing what we were elected to do. That issue is in itself a sad indictment.

Adam Tomkins referred to the length of time for which the building was ablaze before the alarm sounded. I am sure that members have, like me, probably heard hundreds of dreadful rumours about that. That is why we need the fire service report as soon as possible. The issue is a mystery to most people. The time delay video—in fact, it was Tom Inns who showed me it in a meeting—shows that the fire subsided and then, within seconds, the O2 building exploded in a blaze. No one can explain that. We want to know why it happened.

The management of the building, who were meant to protect it from fire, having had a warning in 2014, have been extraordinary. They did not know whether the fire alarm system was on on the night of the fire, and the fact that no one has been held accountable for that is one of the most damning aspects of the episode. For that alone, heads should have rolled at the GSA. It beggars belief that the management could not tell the committee whether the alarm was on on the night. That in itself should be the subject of a public inquiry.

There was confusion about the fire plan and the fire suppression system. There was dysfunction at every level. Adam Tomkins spoke at length about the dysfunctional nature of the GSA leadership. We need to know whether that contributed in any way to the school’s management and to the fire itself.

We do not have an answer on why the director, Tom Inns, left. Let us be under no illusion: Tom Inns left under a cloud. If we are to believe the reports that we read in the press, he was sacked, but we do not know why. Six people signed a confidentiality agreement. What was in those confidentiality agreements? Why are we not allowed to see them?

There is an issue to do with the use of public funds. Most recently, £1.2 million was spent on the Charles Oakley building as a temporary measure that did not need to be taken. Did the management not think that they were under scrutiny? It is as if they do not think that anyone will question what they are doing.

As I think that Kenny Gibson said, in the committee, Sandra White and I asked Muriel Gray some direct questions. Sandra White is not here for the debate; she has done a lot of work on the issue and should be commended for that. To be fair to Muriel Gray, she acknowledged that the relationship with the local community had been poor for decades. I am glad that she said that and I commend her for acknowledging it. I asked her directly about the rumours that the GSA intended to purchase a building in Sauchiehall Street to create a frontage for the school. I and others wanted to know where in Sauchiehall Street that building was, because people wanted to have a say on it. There is not a lot of trust between the local community and businesses and the Glasgow School of Art. If the school wants to buy a building with the millions that it seems to have, I would like to know which one.

Muriel Gray told me that she did not know which building it was, but I know for a fact that it was the O2. The school could not afford to get it. Tom Arthur made an excellent speech about the importance of the O2 in all this. That is a side issue in the context of the need to get to the bottom of what caused the fire, but the consequences have been devastating for the local community and the music community in Glasgow, and we do not yet know whether the O2 will be rebuilt as a music venue. I am spending a lot of time talking to the owners, and I have put on record my thanks to the officials at Glasgow City Council—not the leadership; Adam Tomkins is right about that—because officials, at least, are doing their very best to ensure that the O2 has an open door to put forward an affordable design that planners will accept.

It is important that we engage with all that work. If the O2 cannot be restored in three or four years and we lose it as a city venue, there will be devastating consequences for that part of Sauchiehall Street—let alone the music community. As I think Patrick Harvie said, the future of Sauchiehall Street is hanging in the balance. The Sauchiehall Street avenue project has been a success, to some degree, in changing the balance, but the jury is still out on the street’s future. Businesses still come to me to say that they do not know whether they can survive.

I hope that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service report is due. I do not know whether ministers can ask about the timescale; it would be helpful if the cabinet secretary could say, in summing up, whether that is an appropriate question to ask.

The role of ministers is critical in all this. If the committee and the Parliament cannot get answers, surely to goodness ministers, with all their authority, can get some of the answers to questions that we were unable to get. The Glasgow School of Art is a public institution.

In the past five minutes, I have read that the Glasgow School of Art has five new governors. I read about who they are and they look like very good people. However, really? This was an opportunity to appoint someone who could have represented the people of Glasgow and addressed that disengagement issue, but the GSA did not take that opportunity. I think that it is sending a clear message in response to the committee’s suggestion that it should be controlled by a trust. The message is, “No. We will take control of the Mackintosh. We’ve appointed five new governors. You can go away.” I do not know whether the GSA has learned any lessons.

There must be a public inquiry. I know that the cabinet secretary will say that he needs to read the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service report, and I understand that, but will he indicate how warm he is to the idea? What are his feelings on it? I do not argue lightly for a public inquiry—I know that we are often quick to jump in and say that we must have a public inquiry. However, we really need a public inquiry in this case, and I hope that, after ministers have read the SFRS report, they will back our calls for one.

16:35  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee debate on motion S5M-19553, in the name of Joan McAlpine, on the Glasg...
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
On behalf of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, I welcome the opportunity to debate the committee’s report, “The Glasgow School of ...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Does the member agree that the public inquiry—which I agree should be held—should look not only backwards at what happened in 2018 and why it happened but fo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You will get all your time back, Ms McAlpine.
Joan McAlpine SNP
Thank you. I do not want to pre-empt the public inquiry, but the committee’s report did look forward and said that the decision on future management of the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Some members apparently want to speak but have not pressed their request-to-speak buttons, so I am at a loss as to whether they still want to speak. 15:13
The Minister for Further Education, Higher Education and Science (Richard Lochhead) SNP
I commend Joan McAlpine, the convener of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, and her colleagues on it, for their substantial and tho...
Adam Tomkins Con
Does the minister agree that the GSA management not only allowed this iconic building to burn down twice in four years but, in the aftermath of the 2018 fire...
Richard Lochhead SNP
Although I would not necessarily use the same language as Adam Tomkins used, I certainly think that there are harsh lessons to be learned—as the Glasgow Scho...
Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Con
I thank the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee for its work and for bringing its report to the chamber today. The Charles Rennie Mackint...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I thank the committee and its convener, Joan McAlpine. The committee made a forensic examination of the tragedy of the Glasgow School of Art fire. The commit...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I recognise the work of the committee in producing its report and I agree with its central conclusions. Yes, indeed, the public inquiry will be required and ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of a maximum of six minutes, please. 15:43
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I thank Joan McAlpine for leading the debate on behalf of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, of which I am a member. I know that bu...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in the debate today, and I commend the committee for its work and its report. In February this year, one mont...
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, I am pleased to have been called to contribute to this afternoon’s debate on our ...
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the opportunity to take part in this afternoon’s debate. I thank the committee for the important work that it has done in the inquiry to highlight ...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate and I put on record my thanks to the committee and the clerks for producing the report, which is a s...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Shortly before the summer recess, I spoke in the members’ business debate that marked one year since the second Glasgow School of Art fire. On 15 June last y...
Joan McAlpine SNP
The member quite rightly cites recent reports. Does she agree that some of the investigative journalism that has been done by The Sunday Post and The Times h...
Annie Wells Con
I absolutely agree with Joan McAlpine. Whatever happens next, public confidence will need to be restored. Once the outcome of the fire service’s inquiry is ...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I support the committee’s report. As a member of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, I found the inquiry to be both saddening and fa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We move to the closing speeches. 16:27
Pauline McNeill Lab
I acknowledge Stuart McMillan’s point that, fortunately, no one lost their life in the fires. A committee report such as the one that we are considering shou...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am pleased to close for the Scottish Conservatives in the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee debate on the Glasgow School of Art fires...
Richard Lochhead SNP
I thank colleagues for their thoughtful and constructive contributions to this afternoon’s debate. MSPs across the chamber have made powerful and thought-pro...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
As deputy convener of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, I am pleased to close the debate. I thank members for their excellent spee...
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
Keep the noise down, please.
Claire Baker Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Other universities and colleges own grade A listed and historic buildings, but the Glasgow School of Art is alone in having su...