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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 30 October 2019

30 Oct 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Glasgow School of Art Fire

As a member of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, I am pleased to have been called to contribute to this afternoon’s debate on our committee report, entitled “The Glasgow School of Art Mackintosh Building: The loss of a national treasure”. The committee approached the matter on a non-partisan basis, so I was a bit disappointed by Mr Tomkins’s tone, but that is up to him. Members, on a cross-party basis, felt an incredible sense of loss, which has underlain our work on the matter. That incredible sense of loss was our key motivation in examining what happened and what must happen going forward, to ensure that lessons are learned.

I take this opportunity to thank the committee clerks for all their sterling work in producing a very comprehensive report, which was published on 8 March 2019. I believe that we have set forth fairly in the report the evidence that was received, and that we reached conclusions and made recommendations without fear or favour, which is as it should be.

Our key recommendation, which has been referred to already in the debate, is that the Government establish a public inquiry once the SFRS has concluded its investigation. I was pleased to note from the minister’s comments earlier that a public inquiry has not been ruled out. The need for a public inquiry is quite clear, given the significant number of disparate and important strands that are covered by the committee’s report—both as far as the Mack building is concerned and as far as the wider issues that have been raised about historic buildings that are national treasures are concerned. It became quite clear that, in that regard, we need to look at the role of Historic Environment Scotland in general terms and in the context of restoration works particularly. It is regrettable that in the case of the Mack, there appears to have been an arm’s-length approach. That did not help.

I turn to the Glasgow School of Art’s board—the custodians of that most precious of buildings. It has to be reiterated that they presided over not just one, but two catastrophic fires. The first was on 23 May 2014 and the second was on 15 June 2018. The obvious question that arises is this: what lessons did they learn after the first catastrophic fire? The committee did its best to ascertain exactly that, but there was, sadly, a lack of clarity. For example, it was very difficult to get to the bottom of why a water-mist suppression system had not been fully installed by 2014, even although it was agreed in 2008 to proceed with installation. As we have heard, the GSA’s board stated that fundraising was needed, although it is not clear why the non-core Scottish Funding Council sums of about £198,000 per annum that were awarded for heritage purposes could not have been used. How, in fact, was that money spent? Did it go towards purchase of new buildings instead of heritage purposes? That is not clear and must be clarified.

Aside from the fundraising issue, the GSA board also stated that it was subsequently discovered only in July 2013 that there was a problem with asbestos that required to be dealt with prior to installation of the water-mist suppression system. Why was that discovered so late in the day, given that fundraising for the project commenced in 2009? A full technical survey should surely have been conducted during consideration of the project in order to determine what needed to be done. Such a survey would have informed the decision on the amount of money that needed to be raised.

Questions arose about whether proportionate measures were taken by the board on risk management and on transparency of information, including itemisation of items that were lost from the collections in 2014 and 2018 and their value.

In that regard, there were also questions about the insurance cover that was in place. In committee on 15 November, I asked that a copy of the current insurance policy be made available. Representatives of the GSA said that they would make the policy public, but subsequently refused to do so. Therefore, we have no idea what cover is in place, the conditions that are set forth in the cover, the value of the cover, whether the policy will be paid out in full or at all, and when the policy will be paid out. That is simply not acceptable—not least because the public purse paid the insurance premiums.

It is vital that we get to the bottom of all that. The Mack was not only a national treasure, but was of significant international importance. In examining the facts that we have been able to unearth thus far, it is really difficult to see how it would be possible to sustain the dual purpose of the Mack as a functioning art school and a museum. Calls have been made to set up the Mack as a public trust. With the facts that are available to us today, it is difficult to see how that position would not be preferable to the status quo.

16:02  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee debate on motion S5M-19553, in the name of Joan McAlpine, on the Glasg...
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
On behalf of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, I welcome the opportunity to debate the committee’s report, “The Glasgow School of ...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Does the member agree that the public inquiry—which I agree should be held—should look not only backwards at what happened in 2018 and why it happened but fo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You will get all your time back, Ms McAlpine.
Joan McAlpine SNP
Thank you. I do not want to pre-empt the public inquiry, but the committee’s report did look forward and said that the decision on future management of the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Some members apparently want to speak but have not pressed their request-to-speak buttons, so I am at a loss as to whether they still want to speak. 15:13
The Minister for Further Education, Higher Education and Science (Richard Lochhead) SNP
I commend Joan McAlpine, the convener of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, and her colleagues on it, for their substantial and tho...
Adam Tomkins Con
Does the minister agree that the GSA management not only allowed this iconic building to burn down twice in four years but, in the aftermath of the 2018 fire...
Richard Lochhead SNP
Although I would not necessarily use the same language as Adam Tomkins used, I certainly think that there are harsh lessons to be learned—as the Glasgow Scho...
Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Con
I thank the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee for its work and for bringing its report to the chamber today. The Charles Rennie Mackint...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I thank the committee and its convener, Joan McAlpine. The committee made a forensic examination of the tragedy of the Glasgow School of Art fire. The commit...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I recognise the work of the committee in producing its report and I agree with its central conclusions. Yes, indeed, the public inquiry will be required and ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of a maximum of six minutes, please. 15:43
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I thank Joan McAlpine for leading the debate on behalf of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, of which I am a member. I know that bu...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in the debate today, and I commend the committee for its work and its report. In February this year, one mont...
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, I am pleased to have been called to contribute to this afternoon’s debate on our ...
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the opportunity to take part in this afternoon’s debate. I thank the committee for the important work that it has done in the inquiry to highlight ...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate and I put on record my thanks to the committee and the clerks for producing the report, which is a s...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Shortly before the summer recess, I spoke in the members’ business debate that marked one year since the second Glasgow School of Art fire. On 15 June last y...
Joan McAlpine SNP
The member quite rightly cites recent reports. Does she agree that some of the investigative journalism that has been done by The Sunday Post and The Times h...
Annie Wells Con
I absolutely agree with Joan McAlpine. Whatever happens next, public confidence will need to be restored. Once the outcome of the fire service’s inquiry is ...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I support the committee’s report. As a member of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, I found the inquiry to be both saddening and fa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We move to the closing speeches. 16:27
Pauline McNeill Lab
I acknowledge Stuart McMillan’s point that, fortunately, no one lost their life in the fires. A committee report such as the one that we are considering shou...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am pleased to close for the Scottish Conservatives in the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee debate on the Glasgow School of Art fires...
Richard Lochhead SNP
I thank colleagues for their thoughtful and constructive contributions to this afternoon’s debate. MSPs across the chamber have made powerful and thought-pro...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
As deputy convener of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, I am pleased to close the debate. I thank members for their excellent spee...
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
Keep the noise down, please.
Claire Baker Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Other universities and colleges own grade A listed and historic buildings, but the Glasgow School of Art is alone in having su...