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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 02 October 2019

02 Oct 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Nursery Funding (Deferred Entry to Primary School)
Smith, Liz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

I thank Iain Gray for bringing this debate to the chamber in Labour Party time. I also pay tribute to Fulton MacGregor, not just for his remarks in the debate this afternoon but for his members’ business debate and all the work that he has undertaken with the Give Them Time campaign. He has done a wonderful job and we all owe him gratitude for that.

It is important to see this debate in the context of the best educational interests of young children as they approach primary school age. That is, of course, the context of GIRFEC, which has already been mentioned by a couple of speakers. There is also the context of extending parental choice.

The debate comes at a time when there are much wider debates about the best age to start schooling, which Ross Greer mentioned, and about the structure of primary 1 teaching and how the education that is provided to any child in that year articulates with early years provision and then education from P2 onwards. Specifically, though, the debate is about an inherent unfairness in the system, which Fulton MacGregor highlighted, and that is why we have, I think, all been persuaded that the two stated aims of the Give Them Time campaign are absolutely right.

The first aim is for the deferment of a four-year-old child’s entry to school to be based on the decision of a parent or guardian. Although many parents choose to send their child to school while the child is still four, others choose to defer entry for all sorts of reasons, and they have a right in law to do so.

The campaigners’ second aim is that there should be a level playing field. If parents make the decision to defer entry for their child because he or she has a January or February birthday, as Iain Gray described, they will automatically be entitled to an additional year of pre-school funding, but that is not the same for children who have birthdays later in the year. For such children, instead of there being an automatic entitlement, the decision about funding is at the discretion of the local authority, and it often involves those who have very little knowledge of the child. It is on that point that the Given Them Time campaign is absolutely right to talk about the unfairness of the situation.

The situation is made worse by the fact that only a fifth of parents are fully aware of what the current law is, which means that four fifths are not as aware of their entitlement and might easily lose out because of that lack of awareness. That is surely a very worrying situation for us. Although it is clear that we should credit the Government with making some progress, there is still an awful lot more to be done to ensure that there is a proper level playing field, in order to weed out any automatic discrimination.

Indeed, given the feedback that the Give Them Time campaign has received, we know that it is the area of public information that perhaps needs the greatest attention. The campaign deserves a huge amount of credit for flagging up exactly where the information gaps lie, and it is incumbent on all of us to ensure that we are speaking to the local authorities that we represent to bring about qualitative improvement. However, the fundamental point is that a legislative change is required, which is why we are very keen to support the Labour motion.

The issue is very much related to equality. We all know that better-off parents are often more articulate when it comes to knowing their rights and being prepared to tackle the authorities, and dealing with any appeals process if they feel that there is an injustice. Less well-off parents might struggle a bit more to know what their rights are and, therefore, their children are more at risk of losing out. I am sure that the Scottish Government would not countenance the continuation of a policy that engenders inequality.

The Scottish Government must surely work with local authorities to ensure that they offer parents who have chosen to defer entry fully funded nursery provision for the year of the deferment. The statistical analysis suggests that the costs should be relatively minimal—indeed, there are some who believe that there could be cost savings.

I will finish on a point of considerable principle. There is an inherent difficulty with the policy and it is on that basis that we need to make the legislative change. We should be true to the principle of GIRFEC: it is about the best interests of every child, which is exactly why the 1980 act says what it says. If it is good-quality education that we are all after—and I believe it is absolutely clear that we are—we need to make that change.

15:17  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-19193, in the name of Iain Gray, on the Give Them Time campaign. I will let members take their seats as e...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I am very pleased to move the motion in order to correct a legal anomaly that creates real problems for families across Scotland. I begin by paying tribute ...
The Minister for Children and Young People (Maree Todd) SNP
I am glad to have a further opportunity to discuss school deferral, following my recent appearance at the Education and Skills Committee where I made it clea...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I am grateful to the minister for giving way. Does she accept that, as things stand, the flexibility that she mentions is flexible only for those parents who...
Maree Todd SNP
I would not agree with that. Interruption. I will continue, if the member will allow me to do so. As members know, when parents choose to defer the start of ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the minister do Daniel Johnson the courtesy of answering his question?
Maree Todd SNP
I just answered it. I will answer it more fully if I am allowed to progress. It is a real strength of our system that Scotland has a fully integrated three ...
Iain Gray Lab
Will Maree Todd take an intervention?
Maree Todd SNP
I am in my final minute.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Time has been built in for interventions, but it is for members to decide whether to take them.
Maree Todd SNP
I will finish. We will continue to work with parents, practitioners and their representatives to support parents and carers to make an informed decision for...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
I am pleased to open the debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives and confirm our support for the Labour motion. I thank lain Gray for providing the P...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I thank lain Gray for bringing this issue to Parliament today. The age at which children in Scotland start school directly impacts on how ready they are to ...
Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I thank Labour for the debate and pay tribute to the impressive campaign run by Give Them Time, which has already made a real difference for many of our cons...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We move to the open debate and speeches of four minutes. Some members have not pressed their request-to-speak buttons yet, although I suspect that they are r...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to speak in the debate in support of the Give Them Time campaign, because the simple reality is this: the moment when they send their five-year-...
Maree Todd SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The member is just closing.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Parents should be afforded such decisions now—not once the Government has had further discussions. 15:08
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
I, too, thank Iain Gray for using his time to discuss the issue, which I have taken up over the past eight to 10 months. However, as other members have said,...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I thank Iain Gray for bringing this debate to the chamber in Labour Party time. I also pay tribute to Fulton MacGregor, not just for his remarks in the debat...
Jenny Gilruth (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) SNP
I pay tribute to my friend and colleague Fulton MacGregor, who first brought the matter of the Give Them Time campaign to the chamber in May this year in a m...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
This is not the first time that the Parliament has debated the aims of the Give Them Time campaign, but it is the first time that we will have a vote on the ...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I, too, thank Iain Gray for giving us the opportunity to debate this crucial issue in the chamber once again. Under the Education (Scotland) Act 1980, as we ...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
I, too, commend my colleague Fulton McGregor. I attended but did not speak in the debate in May. That was when I first really understood the scope and scale ...
Alison Harris (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank Iain Gray for bringing the debate to the chamber, and I pay tribute to Fulton MacGregor. I also want to commend speeches by members from across the c...
Maree Todd SNP
I thank everyone who has spoken in this debate. I know that many members will be familiar with issues relating to the policy that we are discussing, and migh...
Iain Gray Lab
The motion is explicit that the legislation should change in this parliamentary session. Will the minister give that commitment?
Maree Todd SNP
As I have said, I will talk to local government partners and will update Parliament on that in due course. We all agree that parents and carers should be su...
Oliver Mundell Con
If the minister is not able to commit to legislation in this parliamentary session, will she commit today to putting interim arrangements in place to make su...