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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 18 September 2019

18 Sep 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Criminal Sentencing

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this Conservative business debate, which has been brought to the chamber by Liam Kerr.

I am not closed to the idea of a discussion or debate about the idea of ending automatic early release. However, any change to the policy would need to be evidence based and the result of proper engagement and discussion, and we have not reached that stage yet. I feel that there has been a rush to judgment on the subject by the Conservatives.

I note that automatic early release was introduced by the UK Conservative Government in 1993, as has been mentioned, and that this Parliament amended the policy in 2015. Only sentences of under four years are subject to automatic early release, so there have been changes over the piece.

As others have said, it is important that there is transparency around and trust in sentencing, and we have to acknowledge that there remains a challenge with certain groups among the public in winning that trust. The Cabinet Secretary for Justice quoted the survey by the Scottish Sentencing Council in which two thirds thought that sentencing was fair. However, it is reasonable to point out that that means that a third did not think that sentencing was fair. That shows that there is still a big challenge to be met.

That challenge can be met partly through the work of the Sentencing Council, but it is disappointing that, in three and a half years, it has produced only one suite of guidelines and work. In its recent business report, it says that it will be 2021 before we get new guidelines and recommendations on sexual offences. There needs to be greater speed around that work.

As the cabinet secretary pointed out, there has been discussion in recent days about the Scottish Prison Service and overcrowding, and the discussion that we are having needs to be seen in that light. There are challenges for the Scottish Prison Service around budgets and having fit and capable prison officers in place to ensure that the service runs properly. That is a challenge when there are increases in sickness absence levels of over 60 per cent.

The issue for the Conservatives is that the policy that they are proposing has, from what I can see, little evidence to back it up. It would involve increasing prison capacity, but they have not in any way answered the question of how they would solve the overcrowding crisis. Would they build more prisons? We have not heard.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-18896, in the name of Liam Kerr, on restoring trust in criminal sentencing. 15:51
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I have lodged this motion because I am sure that all of us in the chamber have met victims and their families who have expressed disbelief and horror at what...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Excuse me, Mr Kerr. This is a quiet chamber at the moment, and I can hear Mr Neil’s and Mr Lyle’s conversation at the back of the room. They cannot hear me, ...
Liam Kerr Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer. That is the reality, because every criminal who is sentenced to under four years in jail is automatically released halfway th...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Can the member enlighten us about which Government introduced that automatic release measure ?
Liam Kerr Con
I am happy to. It was introduced by the Conservative Government, which was seeking to wind it up in 1997 when a Labour Government came in and did not bother....
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
Liam Kerr mentioned the horrific case of the brutal murder of Alesha MacPhail. Does he recognise that his own proposed bill for whole-life custody, which is ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Before Mr Kerr rises, I note that I have time in hand, so members need not be concerned about interventions—during the early part of the debate, at least.
Liam Kerr Con
I understand the cabinet secretary’s point, and I will come back to whole-life sentences—he should have no fear of that. The point that I am making is abou...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
Although I disagree with his motion—to which we have, of course, lodged an amendment—I thank Liam Kerr for bringing today’s debate. It is an important debate...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Humza Yousaf SNP
I was about to quote from a speech that Lady Dorrian gave, but I will give way to Liam Kerr before I do so.
Liam Kerr Con
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for taking my intervention, but I am concerned about what he said about automatic early release. Does he think that it...
Humza Yousaf SNP
Abolishing automatic early release for short-term prisoners is not the right thing at all. A couple of days ago, I was questioned about—
Liam Kerr Con
Will the cabinet secretary take a further intervention?
Humza Yousaf SNP
No, I will not. I ask Mr Kerr to give me a second to develop my point. Yesterday in the chamber, I took questions about our prison population, which I think ...
Liam Kerr Con
The cabinet secretary will recall that, in 2006, he gave The Herald a quote to the effect that he was in favour of abolishing automatic early release. I am t...
Humza Yousaf SNP
First of all, whatever I said then in The Herald would have been about abolishing automatic early release for long-term prisoners, which the Parliament chose...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You must conclude there.
Humza Yousaf SNP
However, I look forward to hearing the rest of the debate.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Please move your amendment, cabinet secretary
Humza Yousaf SNP
I move amendment S5M-18896.3, to leave out from “believes” to end and insert: “, while acknowledging that more can always be done to ensure that public conf...
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this Conservative business debate, which has been brought to the chamber by Liam Kerr. I am not closed to the idea of ...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
James Kelly Lab
I am a bit short of time. I am sorry.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I can give you the time back if you want to take the intervention, Mr Kelly.
James Kelly Lab
Yes—sure.
Margaret Mitchell Con
I thank the member. Does he recognise that the remand population, which includes people who should not be on remand, is the area that we should be looking at...
James Kelly Lab
There are different ways to look at reducing the prison population—some of them have come up in recent days—but if we consider the central thrust of Liam Ker...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
Mr Kerr has brought a philosophical debate to the chamber. I have to say that I increasingly find Mr Kerr’s views distasteful. I am not convinced that they a...