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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 18 September 2019

18 Sep 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Criminal Sentencing
Kerr, Liam Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I understand the cabinet secretary’s point, and I will come back to whole-life sentences—he should have no fear of that.

The point that I am making is about a life sentence being, in reality, a lengthy jail term, whereby, if the prisoner can keep their nose clean, they will have a second chance of life on the outside—a second chance that is denied to victims.

All I am asking is that we jettison the terms “life imprisonment” and “life sentence” when more than 70 per cent of such prisoners spend less than 15 years in prison. On that point, it is right that prisoners get the opportunity to earn early release—we must seek to rehabilitate. Therefore, conditional, risk-assessed and closely monitored early release has an important role to play in ensuring that an offender is ready to be liberated. However, for the most vile criminals who commit the most appalling acts, it is my belief that life should mean life and that there should be no chance of release.

At the moment, as demonstrated by the cases that I have talked about, the fact is that—unlike in England and Wales—Scottish judges simply cannot hand out a sentence that ensures that the very worst murderers and sexual offenders are never released to offend again. I hear those who say that we can engineer life sentences by setting a punishment part that is higher than the criminal’s life expectancy, but what is transparent about that?

The reality is that it is only in the cases of people such as Peter Tobin, who was in his 60s when he was sentenced, that there is pretty much no doubt that they will never leave prison. Whole-life sentences are a clear and unambiguous option—rarely used but vital—that we should give Scottish judges.

I called today’s debate because we need to restore public trust in the justice system. I have suggested several ways to do that, and my colleagues will develop those points as we go through the debate. In summary, we can do it by abolishing automatic early release for all short-term and long-term prisoners; using genuine language around sentencing so that victims, families and communities know what to expect; and by at least having the debate on whole-life sentences that the public has signalled that it would like to see. Is the Parliament really going to vote against a motion that seeks to restore trust in the justice system? We shall see.

I move,

That the Parliament believes that urgent action must be taken to restore public trust in the justice system, including the abolition of automatic early release for all short-term and long-term prisoners.

15:57  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-18896, in the name of Liam Kerr, on restoring trust in criminal sentencing. 15:51
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I have lodged this motion because I am sure that all of us in the chamber have met victims and their families who have expressed disbelief and horror at what...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Excuse me, Mr Kerr. This is a quiet chamber at the moment, and I can hear Mr Neil’s and Mr Lyle’s conversation at the back of the room. They cannot hear me, ...
Liam Kerr Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer. That is the reality, because every criminal who is sentenced to under four years in jail is automatically released halfway th...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Can the member enlighten us about which Government introduced that automatic release measure ?
Liam Kerr Con
I am happy to. It was introduced by the Conservative Government, which was seeking to wind it up in 1997 when a Labour Government came in and did not bother....
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
Liam Kerr mentioned the horrific case of the brutal murder of Alesha MacPhail. Does he recognise that his own proposed bill for whole-life custody, which is ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Before Mr Kerr rises, I note that I have time in hand, so members need not be concerned about interventions—during the early part of the debate, at least.
Liam Kerr Con
I understand the cabinet secretary’s point, and I will come back to whole-life sentences—he should have no fear of that. The point that I am making is abou...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf) SNP
Although I disagree with his motion—to which we have, of course, lodged an amendment—I thank Liam Kerr for bringing today’s debate. It is an important debate...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Humza Yousaf SNP
I was about to quote from a speech that Lady Dorrian gave, but I will give way to Liam Kerr before I do so.
Liam Kerr Con
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for taking my intervention, but I am concerned about what he said about automatic early release. Does he think that it...
Humza Yousaf SNP
Abolishing automatic early release for short-term prisoners is not the right thing at all. A couple of days ago, I was questioned about—
Liam Kerr Con
Will the cabinet secretary take a further intervention?
Humza Yousaf SNP
No, I will not. I ask Mr Kerr to give me a second to develop my point. Yesterday in the chamber, I took questions about our prison population, which I think ...
Liam Kerr Con
The cabinet secretary will recall that, in 2006, he gave The Herald a quote to the effect that he was in favour of abolishing automatic early release. I am t...
Humza Yousaf SNP
First of all, whatever I said then in The Herald would have been about abolishing automatic early release for long-term prisoners, which the Parliament chose...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You must conclude there.
Humza Yousaf SNP
However, I look forward to hearing the rest of the debate.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Please move your amendment, cabinet secretary
Humza Yousaf SNP
I move amendment S5M-18896.3, to leave out from “believes” to end and insert: “, while acknowledging that more can always be done to ensure that public conf...
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this Conservative business debate, which has been brought to the chamber by Liam Kerr. I am not closed to the idea of ...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
James Kelly Lab
I am a bit short of time. I am sorry.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I can give you the time back if you want to take the intervention, Mr Kelly.
James Kelly Lab
Yes—sure.
Margaret Mitchell Con
I thank the member. Does he recognise that the remand population, which includes people who should not be on remand, is the area that we should be looking at...
James Kelly Lab
There are different ways to look at reducing the prison population—some of them have come up in recent days—but if we consider the central thrust of Liam Ker...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
Mr Kerr has brought a philosophical debate to the chamber. I have to say that I increasingly find Mr Kerr’s views distasteful. I am not convinced that they a...