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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 11 September 2019

11 Sep 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Citizens Assembly of Scotland

I turn my attention first to the Liberal Democrat amendment, which has just been so movingly moved by Mr Rennie. We on the Conservative benches strongly agree with every word of it—not quite with every word of Mr Rennie’s speech, but certainly with the sentiment behind it. It is a matter of deep regret that the idea of a citizens assembly for Scotland was introduced to the Parliament and to Scottish politics as part of a package of measures that were designed by the First Minister to achieve independence for Scotland. I think that everybody, even Mike Russell, can understand why that has made us all so deeply suspicious of it, just as we have our suspicions about the Referendums (Scotland) Bill, which is another part of the same package. For all those reasons, we will be voting for the Liberal Democrat amendment tonight.

I now turn my attention to the Government motion. The first thing that it says is

“That the Parliament supports the use of deliberative democracy in Scotland”.

I support deliberative democracy in Scotland and I will explain why briefly. I support it because I do not think that party politics gets everything right. I do not think that the Parliament has shown that it is able to get to the bottom of every social or economic problem that faces Scotland today. For all its merits and virtues, the Parliament does not have all the answers, even when we all come together to agree that an issue is of pressing national importance. Climate change might be a good example. If we had started with a citizens assembly on climate change and then moved to other matters, that would have been infinitely preferable to starting with the constitution and the SNP’s obsession with independence.

Another example, which I have given before, is that we all agree that Scotland faces a crisis when it comes to drugs deaths. There is cross-party agreement that the issue blights our nation and it shames us all that we have not been able to come together as a Parliament to agree a way forward. It is not just unfortunate but appalling that the issue has become constitutionalised and has become about where reserved powers lie with regard to safe consumption facilities. That is exactly the kind of issue that party politics is failing to address in Scotland and which a citizens assembly could and should be established to address.

If we had started with climate change or drugs deaths, perhaps there would have been much less suspicion about the idea of citizens assemblies and we could have had genuine all-party support for it.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-18778, in the name of Michael Russell, on the citizens assembly of Scotland. 15:11
The Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations (Michael Russell) SNP
I am sure that every member of the Scottish Parliament will always listen attentively to what Scotland has to say. All of us as MSPs listen to and act on wha...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Michael Russell SNP
I will in a moment. If I am open to the views of the assembly, surely they should be, too. Surely they are not afraid to listen.
Mike Rumbles LD
I am glad that the cabinet secretary took my intervention and that he is not afraid to listen. One of the problems is that there is a great lack of trust ab...
Michael Russell SNP
It is the lack of trust that I am seeking to address today. I will say more about the independence of the citizens assembly now. Interruption. I am sure that...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
On the subjects of trust and thinking anew, does the cabinet secretary agree with the remarks that are attributed to David Martin, one of the co-conveners of...
Michael Russell SNP
I have heard David Martin’s view on the matter. In retrospect, I can understand why people think that. I have to say, there was no intention—
Mike Rumbles LD
No intention!
Michael Russell SNP
I am trying to make a point that can be believed or not believed. There was no intention to say that the citizens assembly would be driving forward any agend...
Adam Tomkins Con
Will Michael Russell take an intervention?
Michael Russell SNP
I really must make progress—I am sorry. I think that I will not be given much extra time by the Presiding Officer. During a period when the claims of compet...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I seem to have upset Mike Russell. He is so upset that he frequently takes to social media to plead with me to talk to him. I know that it is difficult to be...
Adam Tomkins Con
Does Mr Rennie know that, earlier this afternoon, at portfolio question time, Conservative members invited the cabinet secretary, Michael Russell, to distanc...
Willie Rennie LD
I find that astonishing and difficult to believe.
Michael Russell SNP
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. It is important that the words that I used, which will be recorded in the Official Report, are quoted. On no occasion...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Both points have been made. The Official Report can be checked later today and any member who wishes to do so can take appropriate steps.
Willie Rennie LD
Joanna Cherry seems to have created a degree of excitement, not just in the courts today, but in this chamber. I am grateful to her for giving us such clarit...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Rennie, will you move your amendment?
Willie Rennie LD
In all the excitement, I forgot to do that. I move amendment S5M-18778.1, to leave out from “welcomes” to end and insert: “regrets that the first opportuni...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I turn my attention first to the Liberal Democrat amendment, which has just been so movingly moved by Mr Rennie. We on the Conservative benches strongly agre...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I accept much of what Adam Tomkins has said about drug deaths. I was first involved in difficulties in that area in the early 1960s. Would it be helpful if a...
Adam Tomkins Con
The answer to the first part of that question is, yes, it would be helpful. It should happen, in my view, and I know what the consequences of that are. The ...
Adam Tomkins Con
I am not sure whether the cabinet secretary can shed any light on that. I will be happy to give way to him if he can.
Michael Russell SNP
Transparency will be a key issue for the citizens assembly. It will be committed to publishing its costs in full. It will do so at the appropriate moment, wh...
Adam Tomkins Con
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for that response, although he did not shed any light on the question of cost and simply said that it will be made tra...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
In opening the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour, I state our support for the principles of the citizens assembly for Scotland. I also welcome the appointm...
Mike Rumbles LD
This is about motivations. The First Minister has said that we are facing a climate emergency. Liberal Democrats made the point that the citizens assembly wo...
Alex Rowley Lab
I will certainly come on to that point. I have some experience in deliberative democracy. While I was leader of Fife Council, we held one of the first citiz...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I welcome the motion that has been brought to the chamber for debate today. The Greens have long expressed support for deliberative democracy in a range of f...