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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 11 September 2019

11 Sep 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Citizens Assembly of Scotland

I seem to have upset Mike Russell. He is so upset that he frequently takes to social media to plead with me to talk to him. I know that it is difficult to believe that I could upset such a self-effacing, modest, self-deprecating gentleman and member of this chamber, but I say to Mike Russell that the Liberal Democrats will be happy to talk to him anytime on most issues.

Indeed, we have talked a lot about many issues over many months. We worked together on the EU withdrawal bill and the continuity bill—we did not just work together; we agreed with each other on those. We agreed that the Conservative Government was taking powers that should rightly have been placed here from the very beginning. We talked about the people’s vote and, eventually, we persuaded Mike Russell to back the people’s vote. We will work together when we agree.

We also support the citizens assembly as a method and means to reach agreement on the way ahead on challenging issues. For example, to reach net zero greenhouse gas emissions, people will need to be prepared to make radical changes in their day-to-day lives. However, such changes must have a democratic foundation. A citizens assembly on the climate would help to provide that. We must understand people’s different perspectives and the different ways in which that process will affect their lives so that the transition to a carbon-neutral economy can be accomplished as quickly, fairly and legitimately as possible, and that can be done through a citizens assembly. That is the kind of measure that the assembly would be ideally suited for.

That is why we deeply regret that the first opportunity to utilise the tool was when the First Minister announced it earlier this year as part of a statement on the next steps to achieve independence. That is what Mike Russell is upset about; he complains that we will not take part. We do not support independence, so how could we take part in that kind of initiative?

When we listen to David Martin, can Mike Russell blame us? As Adam Tomkins pointed out, David Martin said that it was “a mistake” to wrap the two things together. He was right; it was deeply flawed and, as a result, the process is flawed.

I am an avid reader of The National—that journal that is a record of all things Scottish. Moving on from its campaign earlier this summer of harassment of Scottish strawberry producers who dared to put the union flag on their strawberry punnets, it turned its attention to the citizens assembly. I thought that it was good to give space to the issue. It gave space to Joanna Cherry, who is famous—she was filmed outside the court today—and who speaks for the party on home affairs in the House of Commons. She wrote:

“I have been inundated with queries about how a Citizens Assembly might work and how it could help to achieve independence”.

She went on:

“I was delighted when the First Minister embraced my plan as part of the package of measures paving the way for indyref2. The Citizens’ Assembly process will lay the foundation for the referendum”.

Joanna Cherry went further at the Scottish National Party conference. With some degree of excitement, she told delegates that

“A citizens assembly ... is a concrete way to achieve our goal which is to create a consensus across Scotland and a bigger majority for Yes”.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-18778, in the name of Michael Russell, on the citizens assembly of Scotland. 15:11
The Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations (Michael Russell) SNP
I am sure that every member of the Scottish Parliament will always listen attentively to what Scotland has to say. All of us as MSPs listen to and act on wha...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Michael Russell SNP
I will in a moment. If I am open to the views of the assembly, surely they should be, too. Surely they are not afraid to listen.
Mike Rumbles LD
I am glad that the cabinet secretary took my intervention and that he is not afraid to listen. One of the problems is that there is a great lack of trust ab...
Michael Russell SNP
It is the lack of trust that I am seeking to address today. I will say more about the independence of the citizens assembly now. Interruption. I am sure that...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
On the subjects of trust and thinking anew, does the cabinet secretary agree with the remarks that are attributed to David Martin, one of the co-conveners of...
Michael Russell SNP
I have heard David Martin’s view on the matter. In retrospect, I can understand why people think that. I have to say, there was no intention—
Mike Rumbles LD
No intention!
Michael Russell SNP
I am trying to make a point that can be believed or not believed. There was no intention to say that the citizens assembly would be driving forward any agend...
Adam Tomkins Con
Will Michael Russell take an intervention?
Michael Russell SNP
I really must make progress—I am sorry. I think that I will not be given much extra time by the Presiding Officer. During a period when the claims of compet...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I seem to have upset Mike Russell. He is so upset that he frequently takes to social media to plead with me to talk to him. I know that it is difficult to be...
Adam Tomkins Con
Does Mr Rennie know that, earlier this afternoon, at portfolio question time, Conservative members invited the cabinet secretary, Michael Russell, to distanc...
Willie Rennie LD
I find that astonishing and difficult to believe.
Michael Russell SNP
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. It is important that the words that I used, which will be recorded in the Official Report, are quoted. On no occasion...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Both points have been made. The Official Report can be checked later today and any member who wishes to do so can take appropriate steps.
Willie Rennie LD
Joanna Cherry seems to have created a degree of excitement, not just in the courts today, but in this chamber. I am grateful to her for giving us such clarit...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Rennie, will you move your amendment?
Willie Rennie LD
In all the excitement, I forgot to do that. I move amendment S5M-18778.1, to leave out from “welcomes” to end and insert: “regrets that the first opportuni...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I turn my attention first to the Liberal Democrat amendment, which has just been so movingly moved by Mr Rennie. We on the Conservative benches strongly agre...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I accept much of what Adam Tomkins has said about drug deaths. I was first involved in difficulties in that area in the early 1960s. Would it be helpful if a...
Adam Tomkins Con
The answer to the first part of that question is, yes, it would be helpful. It should happen, in my view, and I know what the consequences of that are. The ...
Adam Tomkins Con
I am not sure whether the cabinet secretary can shed any light on that. I will be happy to give way to him if he can.
Michael Russell SNP
Transparency will be a key issue for the citizens assembly. It will be committed to publishing its costs in full. It will do so at the appropriate moment, wh...
Adam Tomkins Con
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for that response, although he did not shed any light on the question of cost and simply said that it will be made tra...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
In opening the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour, I state our support for the principles of the citizens assembly for Scotland. I also welcome the appointm...
Mike Rumbles LD
This is about motivations. The First Minister has said that we are facing a climate emergency. Liberal Democrats made the point that the citizens assembly wo...
Alex Rowley Lab
I will certainly come on to that point. I have some experience in deliberative democracy. While I was leader of Fife Council, we held one of the first citiz...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I welcome the motion that has been brought to the chamber for debate today. The Greens have long expressed support for deliberative democracy in a range of f...