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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 11 September 2019

11 Sep 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Citizens Assembly of Scotland

I really must make progress—I am sorry. I think that I will not be given much extra time by the Presiding Officer.

During a period when the claims of competing camps are likely to increase in their vehemence, the evidence-based and balanced approach of the assembly will help to provide us with facts, considered opinions and a framework for thinking. Wherever we end up in spring next year and whatever we are debating, none of us will, I hope, wish to turn away an informed, representative and balanced contribution to our national debate.

I began by saying that I wanted to know and listen to what Scotland thinks. I will go further: we need to know what Scotland thinks, what kind of country the people of Scotland want to build, what people think are our greatest challenges and what information the people of Scotland want to have if they and we are to face up to the responsibility of overcoming those challenges.

The Brexit debate has demonstrated the discord that can arise when big constitutional questions are posed in a way that does not include a whole country, that distorts rather than informs and that allows nobody—whatever side of the debate they are on—to have confidence in the terms or implications of the outcome. It has shown what happens when there is only heat in a debate, with no light to shine into our different thoughts, fears and hopes. All parties in this chamber have spoken of the need to improve dialogue, to step back and to consider all points of view more carefully. This assembly provides us with the opportunity to relearn how to do that.

The assembly will report as it sees fit to this Parliament, the Scottish Government and the people of Scotland. Its remit and terms of reference require its report to be laid before Parliament. It expects this Parliament to consider and scrutinise the report, and it requires the Scottish Government to set out, within three months, what it intends to do in respect of the assembly’s recommendations. The assembly’s report will not replace this Parliament’s democratic function of deliberating and deciding. It is one part of Scotland’s story, but I hope that it will be a big and significant part.

This Parliament was the beginning of a new sang, to follow on from Seafield’s famous remark about 1707 being the

“end of an auld sang.”

However, a song can have many voices, and the more that those voices sing in harmony, the better they sound.

This will be Scotland’s first national citizens assembly, but not its last. The Green Party is proposing a future assembly on climate change, and this Government will be happy to endorse that and help to make it happen in this session of Parliament. Adding citizens assemblies to our civic and democratic structures is a natural step for this open and inclusive Parliament, and I am sure that the lessons of this first one will help that happen.

When Henry McLeish presented the report of the cross-party steering group in 1998, he set out the key principles to guide the design of this place. They included an ambition that the Parliament should

“embody and reflect the sharing of power between the people of Scotland”.

We have done a lot to live up to that ideal, but we can do more.

Twenty years ago, this Parliament met for the first time. Twenty years on, let us resolve to continue to innovate in the service of those who put us here and to ensure that they are more and more at the heart of what we do.

I move,

That the Parliament supports the use of deliberative democracy in Scotland; welcomes the establishment of the Citizens’ Assembly of Scotland and the appointment of its independent conveners, Kate Wimpress and David Martin; notes the principles, remit and terms of reference for the Assembly; further notes that the Assembly’s report will be laid before the Parliament; commits to the Scottish Government considering the recommendations in that report and to holding a debate to allow the Parliament to respond to those recommendations, and agrees that, within three months of receiving the report, the Scottish Government should publish a plan setting out how those recommendations that have been agreed by the Parliament will be implemented, and should lay that plan before the Parliament.

15:23  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-18778, in the name of Michael Russell, on the citizens assembly of Scotland. 15:11
The Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations (Michael Russell) SNP
I am sure that every member of the Scottish Parliament will always listen attentively to what Scotland has to say. All of us as MSPs listen to and act on wha...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Michael Russell SNP
I will in a moment. If I am open to the views of the assembly, surely they should be, too. Surely they are not afraid to listen.
Mike Rumbles LD
I am glad that the cabinet secretary took my intervention and that he is not afraid to listen. One of the problems is that there is a great lack of trust ab...
Michael Russell SNP
It is the lack of trust that I am seeking to address today. I will say more about the independence of the citizens assembly now. Interruption. I am sure that...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
On the subjects of trust and thinking anew, does the cabinet secretary agree with the remarks that are attributed to David Martin, one of the co-conveners of...
Michael Russell SNP
I have heard David Martin’s view on the matter. In retrospect, I can understand why people think that. I have to say, there was no intention—
Mike Rumbles LD
No intention!
Michael Russell SNP
I am trying to make a point that can be believed or not believed. There was no intention to say that the citizens assembly would be driving forward any agend...
Adam Tomkins Con
Will Michael Russell take an intervention?
Michael Russell SNP
I really must make progress—I am sorry. I think that I will not be given much extra time by the Presiding Officer. During a period when the claims of compet...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I seem to have upset Mike Russell. He is so upset that he frequently takes to social media to plead with me to talk to him. I know that it is difficult to be...
Adam Tomkins Con
Does Mr Rennie know that, earlier this afternoon, at portfolio question time, Conservative members invited the cabinet secretary, Michael Russell, to distanc...
Willie Rennie LD
I find that astonishing and difficult to believe.
Michael Russell SNP
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. It is important that the words that I used, which will be recorded in the Official Report, are quoted. On no occasion...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Both points have been made. The Official Report can be checked later today and any member who wishes to do so can take appropriate steps.
Willie Rennie LD
Joanna Cherry seems to have created a degree of excitement, not just in the courts today, but in this chamber. I am grateful to her for giving us such clarit...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Rennie, will you move your amendment?
Willie Rennie LD
In all the excitement, I forgot to do that. I move amendment S5M-18778.1, to leave out from “welcomes” to end and insert: “regrets that the first opportuni...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I turn my attention first to the Liberal Democrat amendment, which has just been so movingly moved by Mr Rennie. We on the Conservative benches strongly agre...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I accept much of what Adam Tomkins has said about drug deaths. I was first involved in difficulties in that area in the early 1960s. Would it be helpful if a...
Adam Tomkins Con
The answer to the first part of that question is, yes, it would be helpful. It should happen, in my view, and I know what the consequences of that are. The ...
Adam Tomkins Con
I am not sure whether the cabinet secretary can shed any light on that. I will be happy to give way to him if he can.
Michael Russell SNP
Transparency will be a key issue for the citizens assembly. It will be committed to publishing its costs in full. It will do so at the appropriate moment, wh...
Adam Tomkins Con
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for that response, although he did not shed any light on the question of cost and simply said that it will be made tra...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
In opening the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour, I state our support for the principles of the citizens assembly for Scotland. I also welcome the appointm...
Mike Rumbles LD
This is about motivations. The First Minister has said that we are facing a climate emergency. Liberal Democrats made the point that the citizens assembly wo...
Alex Rowley Lab
I will certainly come on to that point. I have some experience in deliberative democracy. While I was leader of Fife Council, we held one of the first citiz...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I welcome the motion that has been brought to the chamber for debate today. The Greens have long expressed support for deliberative democracy in a range of f...