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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 12 June 2019

12 Jun 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Baker, Claire Lab Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

The debate has been interesting and has inspired conversations, as well as speeches in the chamber. While a debate is the final stage of the passing of a bill, in many ways this one has been the opening conversation on future debates on gender identity and the census, reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004, and transgender rights. Although the debate has been wide ranging, we should not lose sight of what the bill will achieve. If it is passed, the census that will take place in 2021 will, for the first time, collect information on a person’s sexual orientation and transgender status and history—if they wish to answer the relevant questions.

The census strives to be accessible and relevant and to maintain integrity in its data. It is important that such questions are asked on a voluntary basis, which is a position that is widely supported. I understand that work is on-going to ensure individual respondents’ confidentiality and sensitivity to their needs, and I would appreciate an update on that work.

The census is important for public bodies to be able to make key decisions about resource allocation, policy development and how services are planned. By gathering such additional information, the needs of the LGBT community could be better served and understood, as Jamie Greene highlighted in his opening speech.

I return to the sex question. It is interesting to look at the work of the ONS, which is considering the same issue. It has concluded that there would be a risk to the data collected on sex if a third response option were to be added to that question. However, Ross Greer set out his belief that that question should be included and made arguments in support of his position.

As we are agreeing today, voluntary questions will be added on transgender identity, and the ONS thinks that it can meet the needs of that group. As Annabelle Ewing has just stated, the committee has proposed that the sex question in the Scottish census should remain unchanged. It is interesting that, depending on the results of its testing, the ONS proposes to add a caveat to its sex question, to explain that a gender question will follow later in the questionnaire. It has said that that has been found to increase acceptability among the transgender and non-binary populations. It would be interesting to hear whether that option has been explored in Scotland.

It is concerning that elements of the debate have become toxic. The situation has involved misrepresentation and accusations, which presents the Parliament with a challenging environment in which to consider the reforms to the Gender Recognition Act 2004, which form a parallel issue to the debate that has added an intensity to the discussion of the bill that was perhaps not expected.

Murray Blackburn Mackenzie’s briefing sets out concerns about what it describes as “Losing sight of women’s interests”. Joan McAlpine raised those issues. There is concern that the protected characteristic of sex is being diminished and even ignored. Those points must not be dismissed; they need to be addressed. We must not close down debate, and open debate must take place without fear or threat to anyone.

I have heard the comment this afternoon that society is changing but, to ensure that Scotland is a safe, welcoming and respectful country for everyone, we need to make progress with understanding and work to achieve consensus. Reform of the GRA is necessary and, although I accept that that is not the cabinet secretary’s responsibility, the Government needs to be clear about its intentions and bring the debate for parliamentary scrutiny.

The debate that is dominating public discourse often does not recognise other issues that affect LGBT people. The LGBT population is subject to multiple disadvantages in the workplace, in education and in civic Scotland. We know that prejudice exists towards the LGBT community and that physical and verbal assault is all too common. Access to appropriate health services is not always easy, and that is compounded by Scotland’s geography. As Pauline McNeill highlighted, LGBT Youth Scotland has reported that 84 per cent of LGBT young people and 96 per cent of trans young people feel that they have experienced a mental health problem.

LGBT people can face isolation from their families and communities. I fully recognise the concerns that have been expressed about what changes to the GRA will mean for women and girls and for women’s rights, but we must recognise that LGBT communities are often vulnerable and open to exploitation and assault. We need to chart a path through the debate in a sensitive and understanding manner that recognises and addresses the concerns of everyone about the impact of the proposed changes.

16:47  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a stage 3 debate on motion S5M-17645, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill. Before the debate...
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture, Tourism and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop) SNP
I am very pleased to open this stage 3 debate on the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill. The deliberations of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affai...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
What is the public consultation process? How will members of the public be able to engage in forming and stress testing the new questions?
Fiona Hyslop SNP
There are two elements: users’ needs and the need for population data. The consultation commenced years and years ago. The questions have been developed over...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank fellow members of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, and the staff who work with the committee, for getting the bill to whe...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased that we are debating the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill at stage 3, as part of the preparation for the 2021 census. As the opening speaker f...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
Given the volume of amendments to some other recent bills, it has been a while since we have reached a stage 3 debate and been in the position of saying esse...
Claire Baker Lab
I do not know whether Mr Greer noticed but, in the evidence that we received, National Records of Scotland said that, if there was a third option, it would j...
Ross Greer Green
That is why I said that the option “could” allow us to collect that valuable data. That is a choice that could be made. It is a policy choice for National Re...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
As others have observantly noted, the bill is somewhat short, with only three sections, so I am more confident than usual that everyone in the debate will ge...
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Before I start, I associate myself with the remarks of Claire Baker, Jamie Greene and Tavish Scott in urging a civilised debate on these matters and in conde...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Annie Wells, to be followed by Stuart McMillan. I encourage members to keep to four minutes. 16:21
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I thank all the organisations that kindly sent briefings ahead of the debate. It is only right that the census reflects the views of modern-day society, whic...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
The bill, which is largely technical in nature, has caused a stir in terms of public debate. The bill simply seeks to amend the enabling powers in the 1920 a...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
Given some of the issues that we have touched on in the debate so far, it would be easier either to speak only for 30 seconds or for 30 minutes. I thank the ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I join other members in thanking the committee for its hard work in reaching this point and making things relatively straightforward for the rest of us. I as...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
Had the member been listening to the debate—I noticed that she was in conversation with her colleague for the first three quarters of an hour—she would know ...
Pauline McNeill Lab
Oh, well—that will teach me. I apologise to the cabinet secretary if she thought I was being flippant. I did not mean to be. I recognise the importance of t...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
Will the member take an intervention? Oh, she has finished.
The Presiding Officer NPA
Perhaps the cabinet secretary can add that point to her concluding comments. 16:38
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in this stage 3 debate on the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill. I, too, thank the committee clerks and the Scottish Parliament inform...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the closing speeches. 16:42
Claire Baker Lab
The debate has been interesting and has inspired conversations, as well as speeches in the chamber. While a debate is the final stage of the passing of a bil...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am pleased to close for the Scottish Conservatives in the stage 3 debate on the bill. It has been interesting to hear the contributions from across the cha...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
I am grateful to my parliamentary colleagues here today for another useful debate on these sensitive matters. I am pleased that stakeholders, the committee a...
Claire Baker Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Fiona Hyslop SNP
I want to make my point here. I have already communicated to the committee that it is really important that people will have confidence in using the census d...