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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 12 June 2019

12 Jun 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

As others have observantly noted, the bill is somewhat short, with only three sections, so I am more confident than usual that everyone in the debate will genuinely have read the whole thing, which is possibly not something that we will be able to say about the Planning (Scotland) Bill when we consider it next week. However, as the cabinet secretary correctly observed, the bill’s brevity does not translate into a lack of importance. Getting the census right is a once-in-a-decade task that is laid before the Parliament of the time. Just as with the previous census, the results of the next one will be reflected on for many decades to come.

Before I deal with a couple of points in the bill, I want to associate myself with the motion that was recently lodged by Jenny Marra and widely supported by members across the Parliament. As Jamie Greene and Ross Greer said, one issue that has hit the headlines or has at least been a feature of social media traffic is the importance of the census producing accurate information about sex and gender identity as a precursor to the wider legislative proposals that the Parliament will consider on those matters in due course.

This national Parliament, above all places, should not tolerate threats, intimidation and physical violence against women who articulate a view on the definitions of sex and gender. We must surely make a joint, concerted and strong stand against what happened recently at the University of Edinburgh in that regard, as Jenny Marra’s motion rightly does. Someone who was involved in the university debate told me:

“This whole situation is distressing, and most distressing of all is the sense that those of us arguing for a rational debate, that allows arguments against simply replacing sex with gender identity across law and public policy to be properly heard, are being left vulnerable to defamation and threats of violence.”

Any sympathy that I have for an argument evaporates when some of those who purport to make it behave in the way in which I understand happened. We cannot and should not tolerate that. That is not the Scotland that I want and it is surely not the Scotland that the Parliament wants. A rational debate about rights needs to be just that—rational.

It is important to be clear on what we are talking about today. As a result of the bill, the 2021 census will be equipped to gather more data about people’s gender identification and sexual orientation. Of course, the actual questions that will be asked will be considered via secondary legislation in the form of a census order, and no doubt there will be further important debates on exactly how those questions are worded, which will be for later. However, during this debate, I have listened to those who have argued about how we shape the bill in order to get the census right.

Arguments have been made about the importance of robust data, and it is important to reflect on the policy memorandum, which explains that

“Government, local authorities, health services, the education and academic communities, the third sector, commercial businesses, and others need reliable information on the number and characteristics of people and households if they are to conduct many of their activities effectively.”

That seemed to me to reflect the overwhelming weight of evidence that I and committee colleagues heard over recent weeks. Ensuring that bodies are equipped with robust data in order to carry out their services is therefore the overwhelming purpose of the census.

There have already been important reflections during the debate about how we ensure that the data is robust, with Ross Greer adding his perspective on that. I recognise the arguments that have been made about the importance of representation. The census will collect information that will be relied on. It is important, therefore, that the snapshot that will be taken is able to accurately reflect Scottish society as it is at the time.

The trans community needs to be included in the census. That community deserves not just to be seen in the census but to be counted accurately in it. Those are the first steps to people having their rights realised, whoever they are and in whatever way, across Scotland. Our records do not know enough about the trans community. With the passing of the bill before us and other bills that will come, that will surely change and change for the better.

I believe that the bill is capable of doing what it was set out to do. That is surely to design a census that collects important sociodemographic information that is used in the design and delivery of public services. On that principle, we will very much support this measure.

16:16  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a stage 3 debate on motion S5M-17645, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill. Before the debate...
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture, Tourism and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop) SNP
I am very pleased to open this stage 3 debate on the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill. The deliberations of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affai...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
What is the public consultation process? How will members of the public be able to engage in forming and stress testing the new questions?
Fiona Hyslop SNP
There are two elements: users’ needs and the need for population data. The consultation commenced years and years ago. The questions have been developed over...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank fellow members of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, and the staff who work with the committee, for getting the bill to whe...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased that we are debating the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill at stage 3, as part of the preparation for the 2021 census. As the opening speaker f...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
Given the volume of amendments to some other recent bills, it has been a while since we have reached a stage 3 debate and been in the position of saying esse...
Claire Baker Lab
I do not know whether Mr Greer noticed but, in the evidence that we received, National Records of Scotland said that, if there was a third option, it would j...
Ross Greer Green
That is why I said that the option “could” allow us to collect that valuable data. That is a choice that could be made. It is a policy choice for National Re...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
As others have observantly noted, the bill is somewhat short, with only three sections, so I am more confident than usual that everyone in the debate will ge...
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Before I start, I associate myself with the remarks of Claire Baker, Jamie Greene and Tavish Scott in urging a civilised debate on these matters and in conde...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Annie Wells, to be followed by Stuart McMillan. I encourage members to keep to four minutes. 16:21
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I thank all the organisations that kindly sent briefings ahead of the debate. It is only right that the census reflects the views of modern-day society, whic...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
The bill, which is largely technical in nature, has caused a stir in terms of public debate. The bill simply seeks to amend the enabling powers in the 1920 a...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
Given some of the issues that we have touched on in the debate so far, it would be easier either to speak only for 30 seconds or for 30 minutes. I thank the ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I join other members in thanking the committee for its hard work in reaching this point and making things relatively straightforward for the rest of us. I as...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
Had the member been listening to the debate—I noticed that she was in conversation with her colleague for the first three quarters of an hour—she would know ...
Pauline McNeill Lab
Oh, well—that will teach me. I apologise to the cabinet secretary if she thought I was being flippant. I did not mean to be. I recognise the importance of t...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
Will the member take an intervention? Oh, she has finished.
The Presiding Officer NPA
Perhaps the cabinet secretary can add that point to her concluding comments. 16:38
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in this stage 3 debate on the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill. I, too, thank the committee clerks and the Scottish Parliament inform...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the closing speeches. 16:42
Claire Baker Lab
The debate has been interesting and has inspired conversations, as well as speeches in the chamber. While a debate is the final stage of the passing of a bil...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am pleased to close for the Scottish Conservatives in the stage 3 debate on the bill. It has been interesting to hear the contributions from across the cha...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
I am grateful to my parliamentary colleagues here today for another useful debate on these sensitive matters. I am pleased that stakeholders, the committee a...
Claire Baker Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Fiona Hyslop SNP
I want to make my point here. I have already communicated to the committee that it is really important that people will have confidence in using the census d...