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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 12 June 2019

12 Jun 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Greer, Ross Green West Scotland Watch on SPTV

Given the volume of amendments to some other recent bills, it has been a while since we have reached a stage 3 debate and been in the position of saying essentially the same things that we said at stage 1. However, despite the much wider debate that specific census questions play into, the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill is not a contentious bill. It is short and really quite simple, and the Greens support it from the point of view of both effective data collection and the improvements that it makes in ensuring that Scotland is a country where everyone is treated with dignity and respect by the state.

The bill’s purpose is to ensure that everyone feels able to accurately complete the census—a principle that finds consensus here in Parliament. It will allow questions in future editions of the census regarding sexuality and what we are now referring to as trans status and history to be asked appropriately—namely as voluntary questions, rather than mandatory ones.

Compelling someone to provide an answer on something as intensely personal as their sexuality or trans status would be wrong even if we lived in a society that was free from bigotry, but it is clear that we do not live in such a society, as was brutally illustrated by the monstrous attack on two queer women on a London night bus just last week and in the stories that members of the trans community told outside this Parliament just a few hours ago.

At the same time, though, the opportunity to collect that data from those who are happy to provide it is an opportunity to meet the needs of those who too often go unnoticed and unsupported. It is a small change to something that happens once a decade, but it is part of a process to ensure that people’s identities are respected, particularly when they engage with public services.

During its stage 1 deliberations, the committee received submissions in support of the bill and of trans inclusion more broadly from many national and long-standing equality organisations including the Scottish trans alliance, Stonewall Scotland, Engender, Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, Close the Gap and Equate Scotland. I particularly thank the Equality Network for its evidence, for its helpful suggestion of an amendment, which the committee agreed with and the Government delivered on, and for its work in organising the powerful rally outside Parliament today, where the voices of trans people and their supporters across the Parliament were heard.

As I mentioned in the stage 1 debate, though, I am not the only one to have been frustrated and saddened by the process surrounding the bill and our committee consideration of it. I acknowledge that National Records of Scotland asked the committee to consider the potential questions, which will come through the census order after the bill is passed, but we should acknowledge the upset and anxiety that have been caused to many vulnerable people by the digression of the debate into matters that are outwith the scope of the bill.

At times, the very validity and existence of trans and non-binary people was called into question. I feel some shame that my Parliament has caused some of my friends stress and a fear that their rights, rather than being enhanced, could be rolled back. What should have been a small technical amendment to the Census Act 1920 to ensure appropriate wording has become an avenue through which a major debate has played out—and, to be frank, I do not think that it has played out in a way that any of us can be happy with. We can do better than the false framing of trans rights versus women’s rights, as all Scotland’s leading women’s organisations have so ably shown us.

I hope and expect that, when the Gender Recognition Act 2004 comes before us, we will do better than to hear evidence from just a single trans person. I certainly hope that those women’s organisations, such as Scottish Women’s Aid and Rape Crisis Scotland, will be invited to present their wealth of evidence and experience, showing that their trans-inclusion measures have not undermined the rights of cisgender women.

Legitimate concerns were raised through the consideration of the bill and they should be addressed in the broader debate on the introduction of trans-inclusion measures. How such measures intersect with services for women, including women-only spaces, is one example. As Scottish Women’s Aid and Rape Crisis Scotland highlighted in their written evidence once it became clear that that was where the debate had turned, their experience in providing support services in a trans-inclusive manner for women who have experienced violence has given them rich evidence. Their letter to the committee stated:

“It is very clear to us that trans inclusion in our own organisations has not given rise to substantive concerns or challenges. Rather, trans women have added to our movements through their support, voluntary work and as staff members”.

Some questions that were raised were very much within scope, particularly around data reliability and comparability. It was suggested that questions being completed on the basis of self-identification, which is existing practice, and the inclusion of a third option in the sex question would harm the overall data set and in turn affect, for example, planning of sex-based services. I believe that the fears there are misplaced. I point in particular to the submission from the head of engagement for NHS National Services Scotland, which is the body that oversees the patient information database. The NHS uses its own data rather than the census data in service planning, and it already collects patient data on the basis of self-identification without issue. The coalition of national women’s organisations, which has extensive experience with that type of data, stated that collecting the information in a trans-inclusive fashion would be beneficial.

I dissented from the committee’s stage 1 conclusion in favour of a binary sex question. Like the respected women’s and equalities organisations that I mentioned, I support a third option. Its inclusion would allow more people to complete the census and, as National Records of Scotland found, it would increase response rates, despite the conclusion in the committee’s stage 1 report claiming the contrary. That option could allow us to gather valuable data on a small and vulnerable group for whom we cannot practically gather that information in any other way, and it would not negatively affect anyone else.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a stage 3 debate on motion S5M-17645, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill. Before the debate...
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture, Tourism and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop) SNP
I am very pleased to open this stage 3 debate on the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill. The deliberations of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affai...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
What is the public consultation process? How will members of the public be able to engage in forming and stress testing the new questions?
Fiona Hyslop SNP
There are two elements: users’ needs and the need for population data. The consultation commenced years and years ago. The questions have been developed over...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank fellow members of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, and the staff who work with the committee, for getting the bill to whe...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased that we are debating the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill at stage 3, as part of the preparation for the 2021 census. As the opening speaker f...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
Given the volume of amendments to some other recent bills, it has been a while since we have reached a stage 3 debate and been in the position of saying esse...
Claire Baker Lab
I do not know whether Mr Greer noticed but, in the evidence that we received, National Records of Scotland said that, if there was a third option, it would j...
Ross Greer Green
That is why I said that the option “could” allow us to collect that valuable data. That is a choice that could be made. It is a policy choice for National Re...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
As others have observantly noted, the bill is somewhat short, with only three sections, so I am more confident than usual that everyone in the debate will ge...
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Before I start, I associate myself with the remarks of Claire Baker, Jamie Greene and Tavish Scott in urging a civilised debate on these matters and in conde...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Annie Wells, to be followed by Stuart McMillan. I encourage members to keep to four minutes. 16:21
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I thank all the organisations that kindly sent briefings ahead of the debate. It is only right that the census reflects the views of modern-day society, whic...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
The bill, which is largely technical in nature, has caused a stir in terms of public debate. The bill simply seeks to amend the enabling powers in the 1920 a...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
Given some of the issues that we have touched on in the debate so far, it would be easier either to speak only for 30 seconds or for 30 minutes. I thank the ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I join other members in thanking the committee for its hard work in reaching this point and making things relatively straightforward for the rest of us. I as...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
Had the member been listening to the debate—I noticed that she was in conversation with her colleague for the first three quarters of an hour—she would know ...
Pauline McNeill Lab
Oh, well—that will teach me. I apologise to the cabinet secretary if she thought I was being flippant. I did not mean to be. I recognise the importance of t...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
Will the member take an intervention? Oh, she has finished.
The Presiding Officer NPA
Perhaps the cabinet secretary can add that point to her concluding comments. 16:38
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in this stage 3 debate on the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill. I, too, thank the committee clerks and the Scottish Parliament inform...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the closing speeches. 16:42
Claire Baker Lab
The debate has been interesting and has inspired conversations, as well as speeches in the chamber. While a debate is the final stage of the passing of a bil...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am pleased to close for the Scottish Conservatives in the stage 3 debate on the bill. It has been interesting to hear the contributions from across the cha...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
I am grateful to my parliamentary colleagues here today for another useful debate on these sensitive matters. I am pleased that stakeholders, the committee a...
Claire Baker Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Fiona Hyslop SNP
I want to make my point here. I have already communicated to the committee that it is really important that people will have confidence in using the census d...