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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 04 June 2019

04 Jun 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Whole-life Custody Sentences
Kerr, Liam Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I do not thank Mr Findlay for wasting my time with his intervention. Of course I do not think that, Mr Findlay; just sit down.

Some people accept that we do not have whole-life custody sentences, but we should ask why we need them. Why bring in a sentence that would apply only to the worst criminals, and which would give Scottish judges the same powers that judges in England and Wales have? One of the core functions of our justice system is punishment, but the constraints on the length of punishment parts, which I have already set out, do not allow the Scottish courts to discharge that function for the very worst criminal acts.

Punishment is not the only reason that we send people to jail, but neither should it go ignored. The length of time for which society removes someone’s liberty must measure up to the appalling consequences of their actions. We must also think about the public and victims’ experiences. Too many people who have never had that experience—directly or indirectly—ignore the strength of public feeling on the issue and elevate their concerns for the offender. To them, I simply say: Linda McDonald, the family of Paige Docherty and others are completely right to demand that life means life.

I will address the public safety point. Some offenders commit crimes that are so appalling that the risk of reoffending should be removed altogether. There is a justified public outcry when a violent criminal is released only to reoffend and inflict devastation on yet more lives. Yes, releasing an offender comes with risks, and it is right that society takes that collective risk for most prisoners in the pursuit of rehabilitation. However, for the most despicable offenders, that is a fruitless effort. It is time to protect Scotland’s communities by removing the worst criminals from society for good.

Our proposal for whole-life custody would ensure that those who protect us from danger have the full weight of the justice system behind them. Police officers are among the most selfless people in our communities—they put themselves in harm’s way every day to keep us safe. Prison officers manage difficult and high-risk offenders in an environment that is increasingly plagued by the threat of dangerous substances and weapons. Tragically, some officers’ lives are taken while they are carrying out those duties on our behalf. Those are especially appalling crimes, because they are attacks on not only individuals, but society itself. Those officers can be distinguished from other public servants by the role that they perform and their routine contact with dangerous offenders. Their duties and the risks that they face mean that they stand apart from others. That is why we propose that whole-life custody should be the starting point for the murder of a police or prison officer in the course of their duty.

I have launched a consultation on a member’s bill to enable our judges to give a genuine whole-life sentence for the worst offenders in society. The SNP has an opportunity to demonstrate that it is not a soft touch on criminals. My consultation sets out the facts in a clear plan for how to go about this. The only question left is whether the SNP agrees with the principle that the very worst criminals deserve a lifetime behind bars. It can work with us to make that law, or it can confirm what the public already suspect; whatever it does, the Scottish public will know that a Scottish Conservative Government led by Ruth Davidson will put victims first, punish the crime, and keep Scotland’s communities safe.

I move,

That the Parliament believes that Scotland’s judges should have the power to impose whole life custody sentences.

14:30  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-17503, in the name of Liam Kerr, on whole-life custody sentences. 14:22
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Imagine you are sitting in the High Court in Glasgow. You have spent weeks or perhaps even months sitting through a trial for the brutal, calculated and remo...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
Liam Kerr Con
I will.
John Finnie Green
I am grateful to the member. I know that he does not like the Parole Board for Scotland, but does he have no confidence at all in its judgment in these matters?
Liam Kerr Con
I thank Mr Finnie for the intervention. On the contrary, the Parole Board does a very difficult job. The point that I am making, if he will allow me to devel...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr Con
I ask Mr Johnson to be very quick.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Is that actually correct? Do judges not have the ability to request an assessment for an order for lifelong restriction, which would do exactly that, if the ...
Liam Kerr Con
There is an awful lot of misunderstanding in the debate about whether judges in Scotland can hand down a life sentence. It is very disappointing to see such ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr Con
If it is brief, Mr Findlay.
Neil Findlay Lab
Why does Mr Kerr not cut to the chase and tell us the reality? What he probably wants is to bring back the death penalty.
Liam Kerr Con
I do not thank Mr Findlay for wasting my time with his intervention. Of course I do not think that, Mr Findlay; just sit down. Some people accept that we do...
The Minister for Community Safety (Ash Denham) SNP
One of the most difficult and important decisions that anyone working in our criminal justice system can face is that which is faced by High Court judges who...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
The proposed bill is a meaningless stunt. The Tories argue that it would be another tool in the sentencing box for judges, but, if that is an attempt to make...
Liam Kerr Con
I do not doubt that Pauline McNeill’s point will be picked up in the closing speeches. We are not compromising the independence of the judiciary at all—not o...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I will deal with the member’s point when I outline what I think would be the right way forward for guidelines and sentencing. The proposed bill also states ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call John Finnie to open for the Green Party. 14:41
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
Liam Kerr was with me at this morning’s Justice Committee meeting, in which we discussed the presumption against short sentences. The committee is deliberati...
Liam Kerr Con
To answer those points, I can tell John Finnie that the proposal is not a stunt, because I have been working on it for the guts of the past two years. A stun...
John Finnie Green
Of course, I acknowledge the work that goes into a member’s bill. Again, Liam Kerr had the good grace to say that someone being sentenced for 37 years has be...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Is it Mr Finnie’s view that the vast prison population will always be subject to rehabilitation and will never present a danger to the public? We are targeti...
John Finnie Green
Mrs Mitchell identifies a group of individuals—fortunately, it is a small group—for whom provisions are already in place: they are unlikely to be given parol...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Liam McArthur to open for the Liberal Democrats. 14:47
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Even after Liam Kerr’s performance this afternoon, I firmly believe that, when it comes to justice, his instincts are broadly liberal. I see him more in the ...
Liam Kerr Con
I do not recognise Mr McArthur’s characterisation. The motion, which I have made very short and to the point, is clear: Scotland’s judges should have the pow...
Liam McArthur LD
As I have made abundantly clear, I do not agree. In sentencing, a judge will set a punishment part, which is the minimum term that must be spent in prison. ...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam McArthur LD
No, thank you. We also need to keep under review the sentencing options that are available to our courts, although the process for doing so is the one that ...