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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 04 June 2019

04 Jun 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Whole-life Custody Sentences
Kerr, Liam Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

There is an awful lot of misunderstanding in the debate about whether judges in Scotland can hand down a life sentence. It is very disappointing to see such errors creep into Mr Johnson’s intervention and the Scottish National Party amendment to the motion, so let us take some time to understand the reality. When a judge in Scotland hands down a so-called life sentence, it is made up of a minimum period that the offender must spend in custody before being eligible for parole—the punishment part—and, after that, the possibility of further time, if the Parole Board so decides. The court has no power to mandate that the worst criminals will never get out.

We are told that the Scottish courts already have a power to set a punishment part that is longer than the rest of an offender’s life. That is the case if the criminal happens to be elderly or terminally unwell, but it turns on chance and cannot be designed.

Daniel Johnson also misses the point that judges are bound by case law, which says that the murderer of a child or a police officer should receive a punishment part of only 20 years. That is not a lifetime. The longest punishment part that has ever been handed out by a Scottish court is 37 years, and even that most extreme example is not the rest of someone’s life if they are in their 20s. The incontestable fact is that Scottish courts cannot, by law, guarantee that the worst criminals will not be let back on to our streets.

Before I get the inevitable intervention, I say that it is a persistent myth that whole-life custody sentences are contrary to human rights. That is not true. In January 2017, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that whole-life orders as they exist in England and Wales are not in breach of the European convention on human rights.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-17503, in the name of Liam Kerr, on whole-life custody sentences. 14:22
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Imagine you are sitting in the High Court in Glasgow. You have spent weeks or perhaps even months sitting through a trial for the brutal, calculated and remo...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
Liam Kerr Con
I will.
John Finnie Green
I am grateful to the member. I know that he does not like the Parole Board for Scotland, but does he have no confidence at all in its judgment in these matters?
Liam Kerr Con
I thank Mr Finnie for the intervention. On the contrary, the Parole Board does a very difficult job. The point that I am making, if he will allow me to devel...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr Con
I ask Mr Johnson to be very quick.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Is that actually correct? Do judges not have the ability to request an assessment for an order for lifelong restriction, which would do exactly that, if the ...
Liam Kerr Con
There is an awful lot of misunderstanding in the debate about whether judges in Scotland can hand down a life sentence. It is very disappointing to see such ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr Con
If it is brief, Mr Findlay.
Neil Findlay Lab
Why does Mr Kerr not cut to the chase and tell us the reality? What he probably wants is to bring back the death penalty.
Liam Kerr Con
I do not thank Mr Findlay for wasting my time with his intervention. Of course I do not think that, Mr Findlay; just sit down. Some people accept that we do...
The Minister for Community Safety (Ash Denham) SNP
One of the most difficult and important decisions that anyone working in our criminal justice system can face is that which is faced by High Court judges who...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
The proposed bill is a meaningless stunt. The Tories argue that it would be another tool in the sentencing box for judges, but, if that is an attempt to make...
Liam Kerr Con
I do not doubt that Pauline McNeill’s point will be picked up in the closing speeches. We are not compromising the independence of the judiciary at all—not o...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I will deal with the member’s point when I outline what I think would be the right way forward for guidelines and sentencing. The proposed bill also states ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call John Finnie to open for the Green Party. 14:41
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
Liam Kerr was with me at this morning’s Justice Committee meeting, in which we discussed the presumption against short sentences. The committee is deliberati...
Liam Kerr Con
To answer those points, I can tell John Finnie that the proposal is not a stunt, because I have been working on it for the guts of the past two years. A stun...
John Finnie Green
Of course, I acknowledge the work that goes into a member’s bill. Again, Liam Kerr had the good grace to say that someone being sentenced for 37 years has be...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Is it Mr Finnie’s view that the vast prison population will always be subject to rehabilitation and will never present a danger to the public? We are targeti...
John Finnie Green
Mrs Mitchell identifies a group of individuals—fortunately, it is a small group—for whom provisions are already in place: they are unlikely to be given parol...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Liam McArthur to open for the Liberal Democrats. 14:47
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Even after Liam Kerr’s performance this afternoon, I firmly believe that, when it comes to justice, his instincts are broadly liberal. I see him more in the ...
Liam Kerr Con
I do not recognise Mr McArthur’s characterisation. The motion, which I have made very short and to the point, is clear: Scotland’s judges should have the pow...
Liam McArthur LD
As I have made abundantly clear, I do not agree. In sentencing, a judge will set a punishment part, which is the minimum term that must be spent in prison. ...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam McArthur LD
No, thank you. We also need to keep under review the sentencing options that are available to our courts, although the process for doing so is the one that ...