Committee
Health and Sport Committee 28 May 2019
28 May 2019 · S5 · Health and Sport Committee
Item of business
Proposed Draft Order
Scottish Public Services Ombudsman (Healthcare Whistleblowing) Order 2019 (SG/2019/66) and Proposed Explanatory Document (SG/2019/67)
Bob Matheson (Protect)
Watch on SPTV
I will provide a small bit of background for committee members who are not aware of Protect and our work. We are a whistleblowing charity: that is what we specialise in and are expert in. We are based in London but operate UK-wide. Because we speak to a lot of whistleblowers—I speak to a lot of them in my day-to-day job—I am fortunate, perhaps, to understand the nuances in dealing with those sorts of problems. If there is an obvious issue or challenge with placing the INWO inside the SPSO, it concerns the distinction between complaints and whistleblowing, which has been seen clearly for a long time. Adding to what has already been said around that, the big difference is the position of the person who is reaching out to the oversight body. In a complaint, that is ordinarily very much the person who is affected—something has happened with their care or the health treatment that they have received—whereas the ordinary place of the whistleblower is as the witness. That is a really important distinction. Although the INWO will obviously play a role in looking at how the whistleblower has been treated, in the sense that the whistleblower is complaining about what has happened to them, it is really important not to lose sight of the whistleblower as the witness. The concern is the focus of what we are trying to resolve in such cases. Ultimately, we want to ensure not only that whistleblowers are safe in the health service, but that the concerns that they raise are listened to. The main difference is in what can be expected from the investigation process, as a complainant in a complaints process and a whistleblower have different rights and different sorts of redress. That is the obvious challenge, but it is not at all insurmountable and the SPSO has already done lots of work on how it can adapt its processes to meet the needs of whistleblowing, which is quite different from complaints. As long as that is an on-going process and there is training to enable its staff to make the adjustment, and as long as there is on-going stakeholder engagement, I do not see that as too big a problem. Certainly, when one looks at the advantages—both personal and from our organisation’s perspective—of placing the procedure within the SPSO, the pros definitely outweigh the cons. The fact that the SPSO is an established organisation with processes and staff already in place means that it will be much quicker to get the service off the ground. The SPSO is also trusted and seen to be independent.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Lewis Macdonald)
Lab
Good morning and welcome to the 15th meeting in 2019 of the Health and Sport Committee. We have received apologies from David Stewart MSP—Anas Sarwar MSP is ...
Rosemary Agnew (Scottish Public Services Ombudsman)
It seems logical for me to start.
The Convener
Lab
It does, indeed.
Rosemary Agnew
It is worth remembering and reflecting on why the two roles will be carried out by the same person. The decision was made in response to the Government’s con...
Rhona Atkinson (NHS Grampian)
I concur with what the committee has just heard. I think that having the two roles in one person holds no disadvantages for the national health service and t...
Alison Mitchell (NHS Lothian)
I agree with my colleagues. It is imperative that there is independence, and the ombudsman brings that in great quantity. The distinction between whistleblow...
Bob Matheson (Protect)
I will provide a small bit of background for committee members who are not aware of Protect and our work. We are a whistleblowing charity: that is what we sp...
The Convener
Lab
The Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh was one of the respondents to our consultation on the order, and it said that there is a concern that “the inte...
Rosemary Agnew
We are grateful to everybody who responded to that consultation and to our own consultation on the draft standards that we put out. I completely understand a...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, everybody. What is the estimated level of funding that the INWO role would require?
Rosemary Agnew
We have not come to a figure, as we are still at the planning stage. It is part of the on-going programme of discussions with the Government. Our relationshi...
Emma Harper
SNP
Would the funding come from the Government or from an NHS pathway?
Rosemary Agnew
I would expect it to come from the Government. Where that money was diverted or brought from would be a matter for the Government.
The Convener
Lab
Would NHS boards have sight of that?
Alison Mitchell
That is something that we are very concerned about. In putting together NHS Lothian’s new policies and procedures investigation process, it has become clear ...
Rhona Atkinson
Similarly, in taking forward the whistleblowing champions role in NHS Grampian, we have looked at two things. First, if something has reached the point of ha...
The Convener
Lab
I guess that change comes with resource implications.
Rhona Atkinson
It has resource implications.
Rosemary Agnew
I echo Rhona Atkinson in saying that one of the significant differences between the whistleblowing standards on which we are consulting and service complaint...
The Convener
Lab
I always think that committees work well when we have negotiation in public.
Bob Matheson
The question of what is whistleblowing is central to the discussion. The standards that I have seen do not envisage whistleblowing as just a final escalation...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
The approach to defining what constitutes whistleblowing is that it will be in the complaint handling procedure rather than in the order. Has consideration b...
The Convener
Lab
The point is that the definition will be in the standards but not in the order.
Rosemary Agnew
Brian Whittle has hit on my second concern. I am comfortable that my organisation and I have understood and defined whistleblowing, which is the result of a ...
The Convener
Lab
Do other witnesses have a view? I assume that the mechanism is legally competent, but is it appropriate? No one else seems to have a view.
Brian Whittle
Con
I echo Rosemary Agnew’s point that defining what legislation pertains to is an issue. The draft order depends on a third party that is not subject to parlia...
The Convener
Lab
That is a fair question. It might be for the cabinet secretary; I do not know whether Rosemary Agnew is aware of other definitions that are in effect matters...
Rosemary Agnew
I cannot think of any such examples, but I will take the question away and come back to you.
The Convener
Lab
We might come back to the issue later.
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
I declare an interest as a member of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. I will raise two small issues. Rosemary Agnew mentioned that the timescales ...