Committee
Health and Sport Committee 28 May 2019
28 May 2019 · S5 · Health and Sport Committee
Item of business
Proposed Draft Order
Scottish Public Services Ombudsman (Healthcare Whistleblowing) Order 2019 (SG/2019/66) and Proposed Explanatory Document (SG/2019/67)
Rosemary Agnew
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It is worth remembering and reflecting on why the two roles will be carried out by the same person. The decision was made in response to the Government’s consultation, which suggested that the role should be carried out by the ombudsman because of our independence—I say “our” because I think of myself as representing the whole office: we all deliver the service. We have a track record on, and a lot of knowledge about, complaint handling. We all fully accept that whistleblowing is not exactly the same as complaint handling and that there are some significant differences. However, we already have some of the underlying skills that we will need when investigating and setting the standards, so we are able to hit the ground running. The challenge with which I will be presented is to ensure that, although I, as an individual, will have both of the duties and areas of responsibility, our processes and internal approaches recognise the different roles, particularly in relation to confidentiality, because we might be investigating complaints about an organisation at the same time as we are looking at whistleblowing issues. On the whole, the benefits will outweigh any of those procedural issues; the important thing is that we recognise them. For me, the benefits are the independence; the ability to scrutinise and, bearing in mind that the order builds on powers that I already have, the ability to shine a light on things and to encourage learning and engagement; and the opportunity to develop and contribute to a national culture in which openness and trust are the norm, as opposed to having to rely on a process that is bolted on at the end. I will stop there and let some of my esteemed colleagues have their say.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Lewis Macdonald)
Lab
Good morning and welcome to the 15th meeting in 2019 of the Health and Sport Committee. We have received apologies from David Stewart MSP—Anas Sarwar MSP is ...
Rosemary Agnew (Scottish Public Services Ombudsman)
It seems logical for me to start.
The Convener
Lab
It does, indeed.
Rosemary Agnew
It is worth remembering and reflecting on why the two roles will be carried out by the same person. The decision was made in response to the Government’s con...
Rhona Atkinson (NHS Grampian)
I concur with what the committee has just heard. I think that having the two roles in one person holds no disadvantages for the national health service and t...
Alison Mitchell (NHS Lothian)
I agree with my colleagues. It is imperative that there is independence, and the ombudsman brings that in great quantity. The distinction between whistleblow...
Bob Matheson (Protect)
I will provide a small bit of background for committee members who are not aware of Protect and our work. We are a whistleblowing charity: that is what we sp...
The Convener
Lab
The Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh was one of the respondents to our consultation on the order, and it said that there is a concern that “the inte...
Rosemary Agnew
We are grateful to everybody who responded to that consultation and to our own consultation on the draft standards that we put out. I completely understand a...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, everybody. What is the estimated level of funding that the INWO role would require?
Rosemary Agnew
We have not come to a figure, as we are still at the planning stage. It is part of the on-going programme of discussions with the Government. Our relationshi...
Emma Harper
SNP
Would the funding come from the Government or from an NHS pathway?
Rosemary Agnew
I would expect it to come from the Government. Where that money was diverted or brought from would be a matter for the Government.
The Convener
Lab
Would NHS boards have sight of that?
Alison Mitchell
That is something that we are very concerned about. In putting together NHS Lothian’s new policies and procedures investigation process, it has become clear ...
Rhona Atkinson
Similarly, in taking forward the whistleblowing champions role in NHS Grampian, we have looked at two things. First, if something has reached the point of ha...
The Convener
Lab
I guess that change comes with resource implications.
Rhona Atkinson
It has resource implications.
Rosemary Agnew
I echo Rhona Atkinson in saying that one of the significant differences between the whistleblowing standards on which we are consulting and service complaint...
The Convener
Lab
I always think that committees work well when we have negotiation in public.
Bob Matheson
The question of what is whistleblowing is central to the discussion. The standards that I have seen do not envisage whistleblowing as just a final escalation...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
The approach to defining what constitutes whistleblowing is that it will be in the complaint handling procedure rather than in the order. Has consideration b...
The Convener
Lab
The point is that the definition will be in the standards but not in the order.
Rosemary Agnew
Brian Whittle has hit on my second concern. I am comfortable that my organisation and I have understood and defined whistleblowing, which is the result of a ...
The Convener
Lab
Do other witnesses have a view? I assume that the mechanism is legally competent, but is it appropriate? No one else seems to have a view.
Brian Whittle
Con
I echo Rosemary Agnew’s point that defining what legislation pertains to is an issue. The draft order depends on a third party that is not subject to parlia...
The Convener
Lab
That is a fair question. It might be for the cabinet secretary; I do not know whether Rosemary Agnew is aware of other definitions that are in effect matters...
Rosemary Agnew
I cannot think of any such examples, but I will take the question away and come back to you.
The Convener
Lab
We might come back to the issue later.
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
I declare an interest as a member of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. I will raise two small issues. Rosemary Agnew mentioned that the timescales ...