Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 28 May 2019
28 May 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I look forward to the Lord Advocate coming to the committee on 6 June to explain why, in its supplementary written evidence, the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service recognised that there is a question involving situations in which mild force has been used by parents. I want to understand who will be responsible for taking the decision to prosecute patents, and under what circumstances that will happen.
I also wonder whether it will fall to individual police officers to decide whether to investigate families, and on what basis and when they will do so. I have not heard answers to any of those questions so far. That is why the bill represents bad law.
The bill will lead to more confusion, as was pointed out by Gary McAteer, who is a leading criminal lawyer from whom the committee did not have time to hear. The bill leaves us open to potential legal challenge. Other witnesses who spoke to the committee recognised that the proposal will create grey areas and problems, because the law of assault is quite wide.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-17342, in the name of John Finnie, on stage 1 of the Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) ...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Green
I am delighted to be opening the debate on the general principles of the Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) Bill. I give thanks to the conve...
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
SNP
I am proud to speak in this debate on behalf of the Equalities and Human Rights Committee. I give my heartfelt thanks to our diligent and professional clerki...
The Minister for Children and Young People (Maree Todd)
SNP
I am pleased to speak for the Scottish Government on the Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) Bill. As the Minister for Children and Young Peo...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I am listening carefully to what the minister is saying. If we are listening, has the minister given any consideration to the strong views of the majority of...
Maree Todd
SNP
When parents were asked, more than 90 per cent of respondents said that they believe that children should have the same protection against assault as adults ...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Con
Can the minister set out how many people in Scotland thought it is appropriate to criminalise parents for such activities? Once the defence is removed, under...
Maree Todd
SNP
I will happily tackle that point in my summing up. We have been over that at committee: Oliver Mundell is regurgitating the same arguments. By removing the ...
Oliver Mundell
Con
If the minister wants to talk about clarity, is she able to give just one example in which a person would be criminalised for an action that would currently ...
Maree Todd
SNP
Let me be clear. The change in legislation does not create a new offence. The offence already exists: the offence is assault and there is currently a defence...
Liz Smith
Con
Will the minister give way?
Maree Todd
SNP
This is the last intervention that I will take.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
I can allow you a little extra time, minister.
Liz Smith
Con
Can the minister explain with clarity, as I think is her role, why she believes that the current law is bad law?
Maree Todd
SNP
I make it absolutely clear that the Scottish Government thinks that it is not acceptable to use physical punishment on children. We believe that children sho...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Con
When I was elected in 2016, I did not imagine that I would be standing up in the chamber to oppose a bill that calls for equal protection of children from as...
John Finnie
Green
Has Oliver Mundell read what the explanatory notes say about the public interest test? Does he understand that that is not changing? He was present when poli...
Oliver Mundell
Con
I look forward to the Lord Advocate coming to the committee on 6 June to explain why, in its supplementary written evidence, the Crown Office and Procurator ...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Oliver Mundell
Con
I will not. As legislators, our first duty must be to ensure that legislation is workable. My concern is this. I asked the Scottish Government’s legal team ...
John Finnie
Green
I say again that Oliver Mundell is implying that there will be some new change of regime regarding investigation and prosecution. Absolutely nothing is chang...
Oliver Mundell
Con
That comment is, quite frankly, insulting. It makes a fundamental error on a point of law, which is that, in this country, where a defence exists, it is cons...
Gail Ross (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
The member is in his final minute.
Oliver Mundell
Con
Assault can include a gesture that places a person in a state of fear, even if there is no physical contact. That seems to be a very broad category of behavi...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to participate in the stage 1 debate on the Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) Bill. Let me say at the outset that...
Oliver Mundell
Con
Can the member give a guarantee, then, that no parents will be prosecuted after the law changes?
Mary Fee
Lab
I think that the minister more than adequately covered that point when Oliver Mundell intervened during her speech. I say to Oliver Mundell that I have stru...
Liz Smith
Con
I could not agree more with Mary Fee’s point, but does she recognise that there is a fundamental difference in law between the terms “assault” and “reasonabl...