Hansard

The Deputy Convener (Johann Lamont) Lab

Welcome to the 16th meeting of the Education and Skills Committee in 2019. We have received apologies from the convener, Clare Adamson, and from Ross Greer a...

Jenny Gilruth (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) SNP

Good morning. I want to start by taking you all back in time to the development of the senior phase in schools and your involvement in that. Having been a de...

Gerry Lyons (Association of Directors of Education in Scotland)

ADES was involved with the stakeholder groups that existed and the groups that were having discussions about the development of the curriculum at that time. ...

Tony McDaid (South Lanarkshire Council)

At that time I was a headteacher in a local authority, and I remember it quite well. As schools and as a local authority, we worked together to shape some of...

The Deputy Convener Lab

I will come back to you in a minute. Does anybody else on the panel want to respond from their experience?

Gerry Lyons

Also speaking as someone who was a headteacher at the time, I remember that one of the interesting discussions that were taking place was on the support mate...

Jenny Gilruth SNP

I will move on to how the senior phase looks now compared with how it looked five or 10 years ago. Vincent Doherty’s submission says that curriculum for exce...

Vincent Docherty (Aberdeenshire Council)

The words “it could be argued that” should probably have gone before the words “the S5/6 timetable” in the submission. I was a headteacher in Maryhill for a...

Gerry Lyons

I support that completely. The senior phase concept that I was trying to take forward and that I am still taking forward is that it is a learner journey for ...

Jenny Gilruth SNP

I take Vincent Doherty’s point about the five-column structure being suitable for the most able but not really meeting the needs of kids who were not able to...

Gerry Lyons

One thing that we must continue to do is get better at telling that story to people who came through a five-column structure, for example, and give them that...

Mark Ratter (East Renfrewshire Council)

I think that I agree with Gerry Lyons. The issue is very much about ensuring that we have a senior phase that meets the needs of all our learners. In East Re...

Pauline Stephen (Angus Council)

I agree with my colleagues. One of our biggest challenges is communicating with parents about all the options that are available to our young people and enab...

Jenny Gilruth SNP

Finally, on the point that Mark Ratter made about raising attainment, I guess that, in the past, local authorities were responsible for looking at how to do ...

Mark Ratter

I can talk about East Renfrewshire. We still have the expectation and focus that the central team, along with our headteachers and schools, has responsibilit...

Tony McDaid

Within the local authority, there is still a need for that degree of support, and we would base that centrally. However, our headteachers definitely see them...

Gerry Lyons

From a Glasgow perspective, and a local authority one, I reflect that view completely. Something that was, and remains, incredibly positive is the networking...

The Deputy Convener Lab

You could provide those to us in a paper. 09:45

Gerry Lyons

The message is that we want people to be empowered and to work together, and schools are very much in that space.

Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab

I have a follow-up question for Pauline Stephen. You spoke about pupils and parents understanding the potential routes through the different pathways that ar...

Pauline Stephen

My earlier statement was not necessarily about consistency but about finding better ways of explaining to people what their choices are and what the implicat...

Iain Gray Lab

But is the problem not usually the course choice booklets? If the course choices are so complex and diverse that people have trouble navigating them, I am no...

Pauline Stephen

Nationally, there are very good examples of excellent course choice booklets, which we, in Angus, are looking at to help us to improve our offer. I go back t...

Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con

I draw the panel’s attention to the evidence that has been presented to us in previous sessions, and specifically to that from academics and the Educational ...

Gerry Lyons

My first comment is that there should not be. There is an iterative element to the issue. Such a disconnect might have been in place three, four or five year...

Liz Smith Con

I will pick up that issue. Some argue strongly that, with the BGE, progression for languages and the first taste of science subjects is weak, because there i...

Gerry Lyons

I do not accept that, although I understand where the question comes from. Because I was coming here today, I have taken time to check in with modern langua...

Liz Smith Con

Given the pretty dire statistics for modern languages and the uptake at higher and advanced higher, is your point that the senior phase as now designed will ...

Gerry Lyons

I have seen that evidence. I am very interested in it, and two things occurred to me about it. Curriculum for excellence was designed to give our young peopl...

Liz Smith Con

It will not get them SQA qualifications if they have to drop those subjects.