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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 15 May 2019

15 May 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Education

I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate. Anybody who knows me knows that, at my very core, I want to build consensus. I want people to agree with one another, but I say to Jenny Gilruth that she cannot, on the one hand, ask for cross-party consensus and the building of agreement while, on the other, impugning the motives of those who look at the evidence and express concerns. When people look at the evidence and see that something needs to be done, it is unacceptable for others to say, “You’re only saying that because—”. I agree with Jenny Gilruth that Tavish Scott’s speech was depressing. It identified the challenges that we face in the education system and the First Minister’s failure so far to live up to her ambition, but saying that it was depressing is not an attack on Tavish Scott. His speech was a call for us to recognise the scale of the challenge that is ahead of us.

I say to John Swinney that I recognise the constraints that have been placed on his budget by decisions that have been made elsewhere to follow austerity. However, no matter the size of his budget, he has a responsibility for the choices that he makes within it. I simply do not understand why the Government has disproportionately prioritised cuts to local government when it is one of the key drivers for addressing inequality, disadvantage and poverty in our communities.

In the short time that I have, I will highlight multilevel teaching in the senior phase, which is an issue that teachers have flagged up to me directly and one that we have heard evidence on. As has been said, Larry Flanagan of the Educational Institute of Scotland told our committee that there has been an “explosion in multilevel classes”. That is obviously a concern. Far from being a rare response to exceptional circumstances, multilevel teaching, which may involve national 4, national 5, higher and advanced higher teaching in one class, may now be the norm. Does the cabinet secretary think that that is acceptable? Does he agree with Education Scotland that it is not an issue, or does he recognise that there is a serious issue here that is about ensuring that all our young people are getting the best possible learning opportunities? Does he agree that common sense tells us that it is much more challenging for staff to teach and for students to learn in those multilevel classes?

Has the cabinet secretary even considered the impact of being in a multilevel class on young people with additional support needs? I particularly want to emphasise the danger of multilevel teaching, which, far from assisting in closing the attainment gap, may be compounding the inequality that is experienced by young people who are already disadvantaged.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-17280, in the name of Tavish Scott, on education. 15:49
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
We are debating education on the 20th anniversary of the Scottish Parliament, after 12 years of Scottish National Party Government and four years on from the...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
Let me begin by setting out the areas on which I agree with Tavish Scott. I agree that education is the central purpose of this Government. It is the purpose...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
John Swinney SNP
I ask Mr Gray to forgive me. We also see funding being targeted directly to individual schools through pupil equity funding. I hear the criticisms that Mr S...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
John Swinney SNP
I had better give way to Mr Gray first.
Iain Gray Lab
Mr Swinney must know that Universities Scotland tells us that its funding is 11 per cent lower than it was just a few years ago. How can what he has just sai...
John Swinney SNP
It is true because rising levels of total resource are going into the university sector. I will now give way to Mr Mundell.
Oliver Mundell Con
I hear what the cabinet secretary says about pupil equity funding. Does he recognise that there is still a problem for small schools in my constituency, many...
John Swinney SNP
PEF reaches 95 per cent of schools in Scotland. I appreciate that there are challenges around the distribution mechanism, and my officials are engaged with l...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
John Swinney SNP
If Johann Lamont will forgive me, I will give way to her during my closing remarks. Those positive destinations are at a record level because of the appropr...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
It is worth going back to what the First Minister said, when she started in office, about education being a priority. Key interventions were mentioned in her...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
The 2015 OECD report that examined Scottish schools said some very interesting things, and it is in that context that I will address Tavish Scott’s motion, w...
John Swinney SNP
Liz Smith alights on a point that I simply find difficult to comprehend about the Conservative’s stance. The Conservatives have long argued—I respect their p...
Liz Smith Con
Yes, I absolutely will, cabinet secretary. That is the same question that you asked in the previous debate, which I answered. I fundamentally believe in a co...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
Like colleagues, I am grateful to Tavish Scott for bringing a debate on education before Parliament this afternoon. It is a continuing frustration for many ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Four years ago, like Liz Smith, I was a member of this Parliament’s Education and Culture Committee. Since then, the committee has gained in skills what, in ...
Jenny Gilruth (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) SNP
I was going to start by saying that, perhaps for the first time in his life, Tavish Scott is right. However, I found his speech rather depressing. Nonetheles...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I will in a second. Although all teachers should have a baseline understanding of ASN from either their postgraduate or BEd qualifications, all young people...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will Ms Gilruth clarify when the issue of additional support needs was suddenly bumped up the Government’s agenda? Why has it taken until today for it to rec...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I do not accept Oliver Mundell’s point. The Education and Skills Committee has already carried out an inquiry into the issue, so I am not sure why he thinks ...
Alison Harris (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Here we are again. We are only two weeks into the month of May, and this is the second debate on education to have been led by Opposition parties in those 14...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Alison Harris Con
No. I am sorry. I have only four minutes. That is approximately a 75 per cent drop, which is incredible. However, when faced with those facts, the SNP rever...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Taking modern languages is no longer compulsory to S4.
Alison Harris Con
I am sorry—could you please be quiet, Ms Gilruth? I am not taking interjections from you. We have heard the First Minister refuse to answer questions on sub...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate. Anybody who knows me knows that, at my very core, I want to build consensus. I want people to agree ...