Hansard

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP

The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-17091, in the name of Liz Smith, on subject choice. 14:43

Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con

I open the debate by reiterating our belief on the Conservative benches that Scottish education should be based on excellence and equity and that it can once...

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP

Does Liz Smith not understand the inherent contradiction in that last remark? At the same time as welcoming the fact that other curriculum choices and offeri...

Liz Smith Con

There is no contradiction whatever in what I said because, as the Education and Skills Committee was reminded this morning, the critical issue is not about t...

John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP

I am slightly puzzled. Liz Smith seems to be arguing, on the one hand, for more consistency at a national level and, on the other, for more autonomy for indi...

Liz Smith Con

Yes. The fundamental principles of the curriculum for excellence have not allowed the two to match up. Of course, we need consistency and core curricular sub...

John Swinney SNP

I do not understand a fundamental point about the Conservatives’ position. I agree with the Conservatives that schools should have much more discretion over ...

The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP

I can allow you a little extra time, Ms Smith.

Liz Smith Con

I will give the cabinet secretary the example that Terry Lanagan of the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland gave us. Tavish Scott asked if it w...

John Swinney SNP

Will the member take an intervention?

Liz Smith Con

Sorry, no—I have taken quite a lot of interventions. There is a significant issue for the traditional value and ethos of the Scottish curriculum—namely, hav...

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP

The purpose of curriculum for excellence is to provide young people with the skills, knowledge and experiences that will prepare them for life beyond school ...

Liz Smith Con

It is not all about numbers, but about the nature of the choices that young people are afforded. That is the key point.

John Swinney SNP

To be technically correct, there is a relationship between the numbers and the choices—of course there must be. I am about to come on to the question of the ...

Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con

I understand the point that the cabinet secretary is trying to make, but does he recognise that if pupils drop subjects in S4—particularly modern languages a...

John Swinney SNP

I do not accept that that is pupils’ experience. Mr Mundell’s question suggests that when a young person leaves the broad general education phase they dispen...

John Swinney SNP

If Liz Smith will forgive me, I will not take her intervention, because I still have a lot of ground to cover. Focusing on the numbers of qualifications tha...

Oliver Mundell Con

Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?

John Swinney SNP

If Mr Mundell will forgive me, I will not. I still have some detail to cover. Work-based provision for young people in the senior phase is growing. The prop...

Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab

Will the cabinet secretary confirm that he will do an analysis of what those positive destinations are? Far too often, they consist of insecure work, zero-ho...

John Swinney SNP

I will be very happy to explore the substance behind the figures, but we should recognise the fact that young people are leaving school with more qualificati...

Oliver Mundell Con

You have dismissed it out of hand.

John Swinney SNP

No. It has been disputed by academics other than those from whom the committee has heard. It has been disputed not just by me, but by other academics. The c...

Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green

Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention on that point?

John Swinney SNP

I will.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP

It will have to be brief. You have got only about a minute more, cabinet secretary.

Ross Greer Green

I will be very brief. Does the cabinet secretary accept that if we spent more time debating education in Government time, the issue, which has been in the pu...

John Swinney SNP

What I cannot understand is why, given that we have an Education and Skills Committee process under way that is supposed take in excess of 20 hours to consid...

The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP

Cabinet secretary—Interruption. I am losing my voice.

John Swinney SNP

I move amendment S5M-17091.4, to leave out from “the delivery of the new curriculum” to end and insert: “it is necessary to be assured that this is the case...