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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 01 May 2019

01 May 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Subject Choice
Smith, Liz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

There is no contradiction whatever in what I said because, as the Education and Skills Committee was reminded this morning, the critical issue is not about the numbers; it is about the qualitative effect on the subject choices that young people can make. The concern that the Parliament is hearing about is that there has been a diminution of the core subjects that pupils not only want to but need to take—and that Scotland needs them to take for its economic benefit. That is the key point.

There is another fundamental point here—the growing inequity across the country. We know that 32 per cent of schools are still managing to offer seven subjects and 11 per cent of schools are still offering eight subjects, as well as schools in the independent sector. We know, too, that important evidence points to young people at schools in more disadvantaged communities generally being likely to be offered fewer subjects than those in the more affluent areas.

In evidence to the Scottish Parliament, the Royal Society of Edinburgh said that schools have “undoubtedly” cut the number of subjects that pupils can sit, and this has hurt the pupils from the most deprived communities the most. Marina Shapira of the University of Stirling said that the finding had been “striking”—namely, that there was

“a clear relationship between the rate of reduction in the number of subjects made by S4 pupils and the level of school area deprivation.”—[Official Report, Education and Skills Committee, 19 September 2018; c 11.]

She was clear about the subsequent disadvantage to those in those schools—something which parents believe negatively affects the employability of some young people.

That inequity is unacceptable, because it fundamentally undermines a key strength of Scottish education. If the cabinet secretary looks carefully at Official Reports of the Education and Skills Committee, he will see that committee members—Labour, Liberal, Green, Conservative and Scottish National Party—are unanimous in our concern about that point.

The curriculum for excellence was also meant to provide greater autonomy for schools in curriculum development, but in many local authority areas across Scotland, the local authority appears to have taken a one-size-fits-all decision about how many subjects are offered. I am sure that I am not the only member to have received communications from parents asking me where the fairness lies in schools in one local authority that takes a blanket approach offering only six subjects in S4, while in neighbouring local authorities, that is not the case.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-17091, in the name of Liz Smith, on subject choice. 14:43
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I open the debate by reiterating our belief on the Conservative benches that Scottish education should be based on excellence and equity and that it can once...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
Does Liz Smith not understand the inherent contradiction in that last remark? At the same time as welcoming the fact that other curriculum choices and offeri...
Liz Smith Con
There is no contradiction whatever in what I said because, as the Education and Skills Committee was reminded this morning, the critical issue is not about t...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am slightly puzzled. Liz Smith seems to be arguing, on the one hand, for more consistency at a national level and, on the other, for more autonomy for indi...
Liz Smith Con
Yes. The fundamental principles of the curriculum for excellence have not allowed the two to match up. Of course, we need consistency and core curricular sub...
John Swinney SNP
I do not understand a fundamental point about the Conservatives’ position. I agree with the Conservatives that schools should have much more discretion over ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I can allow you a little extra time, Ms Smith.
Liz Smith Con
I will give the cabinet secretary the example that Terry Lanagan of the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland gave us. Tavish Scott asked if it w...
John Swinney SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith Con
Sorry, no—I have taken quite a lot of interventions. There is a significant issue for the traditional value and ethos of the Scottish curriculum—namely, hav...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
The purpose of curriculum for excellence is to provide young people with the skills, knowledge and experiences that will prepare them for life beyond school ...
Liz Smith Con
It is not all about numbers, but about the nature of the choices that young people are afforded. That is the key point.
John Swinney SNP
To be technically correct, there is a relationship between the numbers and the choices—of course there must be. I am about to come on to the question of the ...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
I understand the point that the cabinet secretary is trying to make, but does he recognise that if pupils drop subjects in S4—particularly modern languages a...
John Swinney SNP
I do not accept that that is pupils’ experience. Mr Mundell’s question suggests that when a young person leaves the broad general education phase they dispen...
John Swinney SNP
If Liz Smith will forgive me, I will not take her intervention, because I still have a lot of ground to cover. Focusing on the numbers of qualifications tha...
Oliver Mundell Con
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
If Mr Mundell will forgive me, I will not. I still have some detail to cover. Work-based provision for young people in the senior phase is growing. The prop...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary confirm that he will do an analysis of what those positive destinations are? Far too often, they consist of insecure work, zero-ho...
John Swinney SNP
I will be very happy to explore the substance behind the figures, but we should recognise the fact that young people are leaving school with more qualificati...
Oliver Mundell Con
You have dismissed it out of hand.
John Swinney SNP
No. It has been disputed by academics other than those from whom the committee has heard. It has been disputed not just by me, but by other academics. The c...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention on that point?
John Swinney SNP
I will.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
It will have to be brief. You have got only about a minute more, cabinet secretary.
Ross Greer Green
I will be very brief. Does the cabinet secretary accept that if we spent more time debating education in Government time, the issue, which has been in the pu...
John Swinney SNP
What I cannot understand is why, given that we have an Education and Skills Committee process under way that is supposed take in excess of 20 hours to consid...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Cabinet secretary—Interruption. I am losing my voice.
John Swinney SNP
I move amendment S5M-17091.4, to leave out from “the delivery of the new curriculum” to end and insert: “it is necessary to be assured that this is the case...