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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 23 April 2019

23 Apr 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Social Security and In-work Poverty

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Social Security Committee’s report on in-work poverty. Last week, the Office for National Statistics released figures that show that Scotland is following trends across the UK, with employment at record highs and unemployment at record lows. That is undoubtedly to be welcomed, but many people in work still find themselves in low-income employment and without the opportunities and rewards that, we all hope, work should provide.

Wage growth, of course, is an important metric. As we emerged from the most recent recession, the period of exceptional growth in employment was not matched by similarly positive levels of wage growth, although that trend shows signs of reversing. Across the UK, the gains in employment are being consolidated and there are real-terms increases in wages that appear to be sustainable. As the independent Office for Budget Responsibility reported at the time of this year’s spring statement, wage growth has been revised up to 3 per cent or higher in each year of its forecasts. However, those in the chamber need little reminding that as wages increasingly grow ahead of inflation, it is productivity growth that will make a real impact on the incomes of working people in this country and establish a strong economy. In that regard, although there is more work to do across the UK, productivity remains a more acute problem in Scotland than it is on average in the UK, despite the Scottish Government’s pledge to put such issues front and centre in its economic policy.

As the committee heard, no one factor of itself can address poverty. In-work poverty is heavily concentrated in a relatively small number of sectors, which nevertheless can be large employers, so we should look at the particular issues that arise in those sectors and at what support the Government could offer. We should also bear in mind the fact that relative income poverty is a necessarily narrow measure and that analysis of one metric alone is likely to ignore particular problems in our economy. In remote and island communities, for example, the higher cost of living has a considerable impact on how people can spend their incomes.

The current statistics measure income poverty before and after housing costs. That is certainly important, as increasing housing costs are a major drain on household incomes, particularly for young people, who are less likely to own their own home and more likely to find themselves in the rental sector and exposed to changes in the property market. However, that analysis ignores a whole suite of additional expenses, including energy costs and transport costs, that reduce disposable incomes for families, particularly in my region.

I have mentioned not only employment and wages but opportunities in the workplace. In discussions about the levers that are necessary to address low pay, the Scottish Government has often brushed over the most obvious and most important area, which has been within its control since the advent of devolution; that of education and skills. Building good-quality and high-paying work will require effort to be targeted at ensuring that people have the skills to succeed in the labour market. That is not just an issue for young people who are entering employment for the first time; it is about providing opportunities for people who are established in their careers to reskill and develop in line with their aspirations. Increasingly, a skilled workforce will be essential in our rapidly changing economy.

Although it is tempting to see the issue from the point of view of investment in our future productivity, there is also an individual angle, which is about creating a society in which people have choices and can grasp opportunities without being held back. Employability is one part of that, and the committee has welcomed the Scottish Government’s commitment to providing employment support for people who move into work. Although we have seen early figures from the newly devolved employability programmes, there has been a troubling lack of detail, which has hampered any real examination of their performance so far.

The committee noted the positive impact of Jobcentre Plus work coaches in supporting people who are moving into work or looking to progress in their careers. Clearly, there is a need for services to work together in a positive way to achieve the best outcomes. Public services are at their best when support is personalised and reflects individual needs.

The report does not examine personal debt despite debt being a consideration in relation to a number of the outcomes for households with low incomes. For those on the lowest incomes or those whose incomes are made up largely of income-assessed benefits, sizeable debt repayments will always have the effect of pushing incomes below tolerable levels.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a Social Security Committee debate on motion S5M-16957, in the name of Bob Doris, on social security and in-work poverty. 14:21
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
As the convener of the Parliament’s Social Security Committee, I am pleased to open the debate on the committee’s report “Social Security and In-Work Poverty...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Security and Older People (Shirley-Anne Somerville) SNP
I start by thanking the Social Security Committee for bringing this important matter to debate today and for its hard work during the inquiry. I welcomed the...
Michelle Ballantyne (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I begin by thanking the committee clerks and all those who gave evidence to the inquiry. Although I dissented from a number of points and conclusions during...
Bob Doris SNP
Michelle Ballantyne gave a really interesting quote about winners and losers, if you like, with regard to the new system. Does she agree that, in our report,...
Michelle Ballantyne Con
The convener asks an interesting question and has an interesting use of language. I understood that the committee agreed that it would not use the term “winn...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the member taken an intervention?
Michelle Ballantyne Con
No; I need to make progress. Part of the challenge was that there was an overlap as the committee held its inquiry, with a number of announcements and chan...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Like my colleagues on the Social Security Committee, I am grateful to see our report come to the chamber. Once again, we are forced to consider the catastrop...
Michelle Ballantyne Con
Will Mark Griffin say clearly whether he believes that the legacy benefits were better for working people who were trying to get back to work—whether or not ...
Mark Griffin Lab
I am about to come on to that. When Michelle Ballantyne was speaking, the committee convener made an intervention about how vulnerable people would be affect...
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green) Green
I, too, thank all who gave evidence in writing and in person to the committee and I thank the clerks and advisers who helped to prepare the report. Poverty ...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I, too, commend the committee’s work on this really important subject. When I was growing up and learning about economics, I always thought that there was a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We now move to the open debate. Speeches should be six minutes. However, I have a bit of time in hand and I am happy to give extra time for interventions and...
Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak today about in-work poverty, an issue that is of particular importance to many of our constituents, and also about...
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
The IPPR noted in its evidence that in-work poverty cannot be divorced from the economy. The member is a former economy secretary; does he take any responsib...
Keith Brown SNP
Indeed I did, and one of the things that we did to alleviate in-work poverty was to support the national minimum wage, which the member’s party has never sup...
Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Social Security Committee’s report on in-work poverty. Last week, the Office for National Statistics released figure...
Dr Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) SNP
The member—quite rightly—mentions the problems associated with debt. Does he feel that people waiting five weeks for the initial payment of a benefit to whic...
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
As I have mentioned and as I will come on to again, a number of areas cause problems and that is one that has been looked at. For those on the lowest income...
Alex Cole-Hamilton LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
I am afraid that I do not have time. Within the mix, this Parliament has a great many levers that can have a positive impact on in-work poverty. Unfortunate...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
I thank the Social Security Committee for its work on this important report. I was a member of the Welfare Reform Committee in the previous session of Parlia...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Did the member, like me, receive the briefing from Citizens Advice Scotland, which works every day with clients who are detrimentally affected by universal c...
Clare Adamson SNP
I would certainly encourage them to read the briefing and to listen to the people who are affected by the appalling legislative decisions of the Conservative...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am not a member of the Social Security Committee, but I thank it for its work in preparing the report. Despite what the Tories claim, there is no doubt tha...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I commend the Social Security Committee on what is a worthwhile, considered and timely report...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
I thank everyone for their work on this important report. We are debating the issue of in-work poverty at the same time as we are seeing record-breaking empl...
Tom Arthur SNP
I am listening to the member’s remarks with interest. Does he recognise the argument that increased wages can drive up productivity by necessitating that fir...
Gordon Lindhurst Con
All these things are, of course, interlinked. It is not a simple matter of one leading to the other; there is a complex interplay between such factors, which...