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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 23 April 2019

23 Apr 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Social Security and In-work Poverty

I, too, commend the committee’s work on this really important subject.

When I was growing up and learning about economics, I always thought that there was a correlation between employment rates and poverty and that giving more people better jobs would lift people out of poverty. However, over the past 10 to 20 years, we have seen the spectre of in-work poverty rise. It is insidious; it belies the fact that employment statistics cannot be a barometer for a nation’s poverty or its affluence any more.

I will say a word in support of this Government’s work. I have said many times that the Liberal Democrats’ approach to the issue is very much in step with the Government’s approach, and I thank it again for its conciliatory and consensual approach to social security issues. I also offer the support of the Liberal Democrats with regard to the committee’s conclusions on the need to immediately end the four-year benefits freeze, the need to recast how universal credit is administered and is still being rolled out, and the need for a reversal of the Westminster cuts since 2015.

My party’s approach to social security has always been about poverty reduction, social mobility and making work pay. A lot has been said about my party’s role in coalition Government, but there are two things from that time of which I am very proud. The first is the lifting of the income tax threshold, which, according to The Guardian, at a stroke, did more to address poverty than had been done in the previous 14 years. The second is how my party acted as a sea anchor against the Tory cuts. That fact immediately became manifest when we left the coalition in 2015, and it was picked up by the committee in its report, which recognised what happened to in-work allowance cuts in 2015 when the Liberal Democrats left Government. We visit that reality in all of our surgeries and case work every day of the week when we are back in our constituencies. It is up to us to address in-work poverty.

We need a three-fold approach that involves providing an adequate safety net for when people are out of work, fostering social mobility and making work pay. The imperatives have been laid out in many excellent speeches in the debate already: supporting the 240,000 children in this country who are still in poverty; ensuring that the safety net is adequate when people are out of work or need a work supplement; and tackling the inexorable link between financial worries and mental ill health. In that regard, I point out that 86 per cent of people with mental health issues cite financial concerns as a principal part of their anxiety and distress and indeed, that rates of suicide in Scotland are three times higher in deprived communities than they are in other communities.

As I said, my views and those of my party are largely in step with the approach of the Government in terms of where it wants social security to be deployed in Scotland, and in relation to the need to redress and recast the roll-out of universal credit. That roll-out took place in my constituency—as it did in many members’ constituencies—in November 2018, just before Christmas. Indeed, the consequences of what in many cases was a five-week minimum wait for people to transfer over to universal credit affected them right around Christmas time. That manifested in a huge uptick in the need for food banks in my constituency and in the case work that came through my door and that of Christine Jardine, our local MP.

Such was the range of legacy benefits and so rapid the changeover, that many were left confused, stranded and unsure of their recourse. That is reflected in the committee’s recommendations and conclusions, which recognise that there is still no adequate online or telephone support for people who are struggling with the vagaries of the bureaucracy surrounding the roll-out of universal credit. That includes the digital-by-default phenomenon in which most people are being bounced into the transfer through digital platforms, when one third of benefit recipients are unlikely to have adequate connection to the internet at home or through a place that is accessible to them.

Several times in this chamber, we have rightly raised the issue of the link between universal credit and domestic abuse, which is an unforeseen consequence of the roll-out of UC. We learned about that in discussions around the issue of payment to a single claimant in households in which spousal abuse might be an issue. The committee also raised the issues perfectly in its comments around transitional protections, where, once again, abusive relationships have clearly not been factored into the permutations and the considerations of the roll-out of universal credit by the Westminster Government.

My party and I agree wholeheartedly that we must end the freeze on benefits immediately. We must completely reverse the cuts to in-work benefits that were made in 2015, following our departure from the coalition Government, and we must drive up the take-up of entitlements, because people are still unaware of the benefits to which they are entitled. We also need to dramatically change the way in which we are giving people the money, because the five-week waiting time is leading to irreparable damage, evictions and destitution.

If universal credit was originally designed to make work pay and to make the benefit strata more simple, then it has wholly failed in that regard, and there is an obligation on the Government, and every party in the chamber to address that.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a Social Security Committee debate on motion S5M-16957, in the name of Bob Doris, on social security and in-work poverty. 14:21
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
As the convener of the Parliament’s Social Security Committee, I am pleased to open the debate on the committee’s report “Social Security and In-Work Poverty...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Security and Older People (Shirley-Anne Somerville) SNP
I start by thanking the Social Security Committee for bringing this important matter to debate today and for its hard work during the inquiry. I welcomed the...
Michelle Ballantyne (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I begin by thanking the committee clerks and all those who gave evidence to the inquiry. Although I dissented from a number of points and conclusions during...
Bob Doris SNP
Michelle Ballantyne gave a really interesting quote about winners and losers, if you like, with regard to the new system. Does she agree that, in our report,...
Michelle Ballantyne Con
The convener asks an interesting question and has an interesting use of language. I understood that the committee agreed that it would not use the term “winn...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the member taken an intervention?
Michelle Ballantyne Con
No; I need to make progress. Part of the challenge was that there was an overlap as the committee held its inquiry, with a number of announcements and chan...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Like my colleagues on the Social Security Committee, I am grateful to see our report come to the chamber. Once again, we are forced to consider the catastrop...
Michelle Ballantyne Con
Will Mark Griffin say clearly whether he believes that the legacy benefits were better for working people who were trying to get back to work—whether or not ...
Mark Griffin Lab
I am about to come on to that. When Michelle Ballantyne was speaking, the committee convener made an intervention about how vulnerable people would be affect...
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green) Green
I, too, thank all who gave evidence in writing and in person to the committee and I thank the clerks and advisers who helped to prepare the report. Poverty ...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I, too, commend the committee’s work on this really important subject. When I was growing up and learning about economics, I always thought that there was a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We now move to the open debate. Speeches should be six minutes. However, I have a bit of time in hand and I am happy to give extra time for interventions and...
Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak today about in-work poverty, an issue that is of particular importance to many of our constituents, and also about...
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
The IPPR noted in its evidence that in-work poverty cannot be divorced from the economy. The member is a former economy secretary; does he take any responsib...
Keith Brown SNP
Indeed I did, and one of the things that we did to alleviate in-work poverty was to support the national minimum wage, which the member’s party has never sup...
Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Social Security Committee’s report on in-work poverty. Last week, the Office for National Statistics released figure...
Dr Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) SNP
The member—quite rightly—mentions the problems associated with debt. Does he feel that people waiting five weeks for the initial payment of a benefit to whic...
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
As I have mentioned and as I will come on to again, a number of areas cause problems and that is one that has been looked at. For those on the lowest income...
Alex Cole-Hamilton LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
I am afraid that I do not have time. Within the mix, this Parliament has a great many levers that can have a positive impact on in-work poverty. Unfortunate...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
I thank the Social Security Committee for its work on this important report. I was a member of the Welfare Reform Committee in the previous session of Parlia...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Did the member, like me, receive the briefing from Citizens Advice Scotland, which works every day with clients who are detrimentally affected by universal c...
Clare Adamson SNP
I would certainly encourage them to read the briefing and to listen to the people who are affected by the appalling legislative decisions of the Conservative...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am not a member of the Social Security Committee, but I thank it for its work in preparing the report. Despite what the Tories claim, there is no doubt tha...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I commend the Social Security Committee on what is a worthwhile, considered and timely report...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
I thank everyone for their work on this important report. We are debating the issue of in-work poverty at the same time as we are seeing record-breaking empl...
Tom Arthur SNP
I am listening to the member’s remarks with interest. Does he recognise the argument that increased wages can drive up productivity by necessitating that fir...
Gordon Lindhurst Con
All these things are, of course, interlinked. It is not a simple matter of one leading to the other; there is a complex interplay between such factors, which...