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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 23 April 2019

23 Apr 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Social Security and In-work Poverty
Griffin, Mark Lab Central Scotland Watch on SPTV

Like my colleagues on the Social Security Committee, I am grateful to see our report come to the chamber. Once again, we are forced to consider the catastrophic impact of welfare reform, which is pushing working people into poverty.

Members do not have to read the report to know how miserable the situation has become. Right now, almost 400,000 adults in Scotland are going out to work but still living in poverty, while two thirds of kids who live in poverty are in a household that works. Those people are falling behind everyone else in society, make daily decisions about whether they can buy food or need to get a food parcel, and are no doubt thankful for the mild winter that we have just had because they have been terrified about the meter running out or a fuel bill landing on the mat. It is heart-breaking and it needs to be fixed.

Like the convener and other members, I thank the clerks for their work on the inquiry, and I thank the broad range of experts, including the Resolution Foundation, the IPPR, Citizens Advice Scotland and a number of food banks, for the excellent evidence that we received.

Although the report is important, I am doubtful that any of the mums or dads who are getting ready for a night shift or heading to their second job of the day care much for yet more discussion. What they want is action.

In preparation for the inquiry, the committee made its usual call for evidence. We had just one written submission from an individual with lived experience of being in work and in poverty. It was from Sara MacLean, who recently moved to full-time work and is on tax credits. She told us:

“While I love my job, it is something I am passionate about ... the recent changes to my working tax credits has highlighted that going to work full time does not pay ... I am bringing home only marginally more than when I was working part-time.”

She talked about the opportunity costs of that full-time work, which became harder than the financial hit. She said:

“I missed my daughter’s last day of primary school because it was my first day at work; I was unable to take my son to his first day of P2; overall I get less time to spend with my family”.

She asked quite simply:

“Are the extra few pounds a week worth going full-time?”

We all agree that the mantra that work is the best route out of poverty should be logically correct—of course it should—but it is a simple fact that the link between a person working hard and keeping their head above water is broken.

The report does not say this outright but, ultimately, the committee heard that universal credit is not fit for purpose. It is plunging people into poverty, arrears and destitution. The report lays out—CAS and others echo this in their briefings—how people have been dragged through a system that simply does not care for families’ wellbeing or stability. We were told that universal credit would mirror the world of work and make it pay, but leaving people without an income for at least five weeks or with salaries that fluctuate wildly every month is simply state-sponsored malpractice that decent employers throughout the country would reject.

It is a simple fact that universal credit systematically fosters poverty. Even if a person manages to get a regular payment, they are hit with a marginal tax rate of over 70 per cent. What is the point of a person trying to earn more when their tax rate is 70 per cent?

Philip Hammond’s £1,000 increase in the work allowance is welcome, but it goes nowhere near undoing the 2015 cuts, and the 2p reduction in the taper rate to 63p did not do that either. The Tories are well behind the curve on that. That is why the committee’s report restates the need to restore the funding that was taken away in 2015.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a Social Security Committee debate on motion S5M-16957, in the name of Bob Doris, on social security and in-work poverty. 14:21
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
As the convener of the Parliament’s Social Security Committee, I am pleased to open the debate on the committee’s report “Social Security and In-Work Poverty...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Security and Older People (Shirley-Anne Somerville) SNP
I start by thanking the Social Security Committee for bringing this important matter to debate today and for its hard work during the inquiry. I welcomed the...
Michelle Ballantyne (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I begin by thanking the committee clerks and all those who gave evidence to the inquiry. Although I dissented from a number of points and conclusions during...
Bob Doris SNP
Michelle Ballantyne gave a really interesting quote about winners and losers, if you like, with regard to the new system. Does she agree that, in our report,...
Michelle Ballantyne Con
The convener asks an interesting question and has an interesting use of language. I understood that the committee agreed that it would not use the term “winn...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the member taken an intervention?
Michelle Ballantyne Con
No; I need to make progress. Part of the challenge was that there was an overlap as the committee held its inquiry, with a number of announcements and chan...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Like my colleagues on the Social Security Committee, I am grateful to see our report come to the chamber. Once again, we are forced to consider the catastrop...
Michelle Ballantyne Con
Will Mark Griffin say clearly whether he believes that the legacy benefits were better for working people who were trying to get back to work—whether or not ...
Mark Griffin Lab
I am about to come on to that. When Michelle Ballantyne was speaking, the committee convener made an intervention about how vulnerable people would be affect...
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green) Green
I, too, thank all who gave evidence in writing and in person to the committee and I thank the clerks and advisers who helped to prepare the report. Poverty ...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I, too, commend the committee’s work on this really important subject. When I was growing up and learning about economics, I always thought that there was a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We now move to the open debate. Speeches should be six minutes. However, I have a bit of time in hand and I am happy to give extra time for interventions and...
Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak today about in-work poverty, an issue that is of particular importance to many of our constituents, and also about...
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
The IPPR noted in its evidence that in-work poverty cannot be divorced from the economy. The member is a former economy secretary; does he take any responsib...
Keith Brown SNP
Indeed I did, and one of the things that we did to alleviate in-work poverty was to support the national minimum wage, which the member’s party has never sup...
Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Social Security Committee’s report on in-work poverty. Last week, the Office for National Statistics released figure...
Dr Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) SNP
The member—quite rightly—mentions the problems associated with debt. Does he feel that people waiting five weeks for the initial payment of a benefit to whic...
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
As I have mentioned and as I will come on to again, a number of areas cause problems and that is one that has been looked at. For those on the lowest income...
Alex Cole-Hamilton LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
I am afraid that I do not have time. Within the mix, this Parliament has a great many levers that can have a positive impact on in-work poverty. Unfortunate...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
I thank the Social Security Committee for its work on this important report. I was a member of the Welfare Reform Committee in the previous session of Parlia...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Did the member, like me, receive the briefing from Citizens Advice Scotland, which works every day with clients who are detrimentally affected by universal c...
Clare Adamson SNP
I would certainly encourage them to read the briefing and to listen to the people who are affected by the appalling legislative decisions of the Conservative...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am not a member of the Social Security Committee, but I thank it for its work in preparing the report. Despite what the Tories claim, there is no doubt tha...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I commend the Social Security Committee on what is a worthwhile, considered and timely report...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
I thank everyone for their work on this important report. We are debating the issue of in-work poverty at the same time as we are seeing record-breaking empl...
Tom Arthur SNP
I am listening to the member’s remarks with interest. Does he recognise the argument that increased wages can drive up productivity by necessitating that fir...
Gordon Lindhurst Con
All these things are, of course, interlinked. It is not a simple matter of one leading to the other; there is a complex interplay between such factors, which...