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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 23 April 2019

23 Apr 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Social Security and In-work Poverty

I begin by thanking the committee clerks and all those who gave evidence to the inquiry.

Although I dissented from a number of points and conclusions during the finalisation of the committee’s report—for reasons that I will return to—I acknowledge that this was an important inquiry because recognising that in-work poverty is a problem and committing to tackling it is the first step towards ensuring that everyone who works can and should expect a better future.

Last year, in its report “UK Poverty: causes, costs and solutions”, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation stated:

“The processes that cause poverty are complex. Simplistic explanations may focus on one factor ... but solving poverty requires an approach that takes into account the impact of market and state structures—as well as of individual choice.”

It is important to acknowledge that the inquiry focused on one factor and, in doing so, has inherent weaknesses.

As part of its welfare reforms, the UK Government has committed to ensuring that work pays. The introduction of universal credit was at the centre of that reform, with the aim of simplifying the benefits system and ensuring that individuals and families were able to escape the legacy of benefits that trapped households into intergenerational worklessness. That legacy saw the breakdown of the social contract between taxpayers and those who needed support and the stigmatisation of those who were on benefits, which I hope we never see again.

We know from Scottish Government figures that, between 2015 and 2018, 60 per cent of working-age adults who were considered to be in relative poverty were in working households, with the figure rising to 65 per cent, or 160,000 individuals, in the case of children. We also know that projections suggest that overall poverty rates are likely to rise over the next few years.

What is the relationship between in-work poverty and universal credit? David Finch of the Resolution Foundation said:

“It is definitely too early to say that universal credit is having an impact on the poverty figures, especially because it was nowhere near being rolled out to everybody”

when the Foundation’s survey was done, and

“it still is nowhere near being rolled out to everybody—so it will take time before we see the impact.”

Russell Gunson of the Institute for Public Policy Research Scotland acknowledged that

“universal credit and social security more generally have a big role to play in reducing and tackling poverty and in-work poverty. The economy and the income structure in Scotland—and, of course, the United Kingdom—will be as much, if not more, of an issue when tackling in-work poverty.”

Nobody disputes that universal credit has had its problems, particularly in the early days following its introduction, but Robert Joyce from the Institute for Fiscal Studies reminded us in his evidence that

“The overall rise in the proportion of people who are in poverty and are in a working household has been going on for some time. In itself, it is not a phenomenon that is related to universal credit.”

More importantly, he stated:

“A significant group of working households will keep more benefits under universal credit than they would have kept under the old system. In that direct sense, universal credit will top up and increase their incomes, which would tend to reduce in-work poverty.”—[Official Report, Social Security Committee, 13 September 2018; c 7, 5, 6.]

Part of the challenge for the committee was the fact that the roll-out of universal credit full service was under way during the inquiry and was only completed in December 2018.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a Social Security Committee debate on motion S5M-16957, in the name of Bob Doris, on social security and in-work poverty. 14:21
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
As the convener of the Parliament’s Social Security Committee, I am pleased to open the debate on the committee’s report “Social Security and In-Work Poverty...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Security and Older People (Shirley-Anne Somerville) SNP
I start by thanking the Social Security Committee for bringing this important matter to debate today and for its hard work during the inquiry. I welcomed the...
Michelle Ballantyne (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I begin by thanking the committee clerks and all those who gave evidence to the inquiry. Although I dissented from a number of points and conclusions during...
Bob Doris SNP
Michelle Ballantyne gave a really interesting quote about winners and losers, if you like, with regard to the new system. Does she agree that, in our report,...
Michelle Ballantyne Con
The convener asks an interesting question and has an interesting use of language. I understood that the committee agreed that it would not use the term “winn...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the member taken an intervention?
Michelle Ballantyne Con
No; I need to make progress. Part of the challenge was that there was an overlap as the committee held its inquiry, with a number of announcements and chan...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Like my colleagues on the Social Security Committee, I am grateful to see our report come to the chamber. Once again, we are forced to consider the catastrop...
Michelle Ballantyne Con
Will Mark Griffin say clearly whether he believes that the legacy benefits were better for working people who were trying to get back to work—whether or not ...
Mark Griffin Lab
I am about to come on to that. When Michelle Ballantyne was speaking, the committee convener made an intervention about how vulnerable people would be affect...
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green) Green
I, too, thank all who gave evidence in writing and in person to the committee and I thank the clerks and advisers who helped to prepare the report. Poverty ...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I, too, commend the committee’s work on this really important subject. When I was growing up and learning about economics, I always thought that there was a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
We now move to the open debate. Speeches should be six minutes. However, I have a bit of time in hand and I am happy to give extra time for interventions and...
Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak today about in-work poverty, an issue that is of particular importance to many of our constituents, and also about...
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
The IPPR noted in its evidence that in-work poverty cannot be divorced from the economy. The member is a former economy secretary; does he take any responsib...
Keith Brown SNP
Indeed I did, and one of the things that we did to alleviate in-work poverty was to support the national minimum wage, which the member’s party has never sup...
Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Social Security Committee’s report on in-work poverty. Last week, the Office for National Statistics released figure...
Dr Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) SNP
The member—quite rightly—mentions the problems associated with debt. Does he feel that people waiting five weeks for the initial payment of a benefit to whic...
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
As I have mentioned and as I will come on to again, a number of areas cause problems and that is one that has been looked at. For those on the lowest income...
Alex Cole-Hamilton LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Jamie Halcro Johnston Con
I am afraid that I do not have time. Within the mix, this Parliament has a great many levers that can have a positive impact on in-work poverty. Unfortunate...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
I thank the Social Security Committee for its work on this important report. I was a member of the Welfare Reform Committee in the previous session of Parlia...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Did the member, like me, receive the briefing from Citizens Advice Scotland, which works every day with clients who are detrimentally affected by universal c...
Clare Adamson SNP
I would certainly encourage them to read the briefing and to listen to the people who are affected by the appalling legislative decisions of the Conservative...
Elaine Smith (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am not a member of the Social Security Committee, but I thank it for its work in preparing the report. Despite what the Tories claim, there is no doubt tha...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I commend the Social Security Committee on what is a worthwhile, considered and timely report...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
I thank everyone for their work on this important report. We are debating the issue of in-work poverty at the same time as we are seeing record-breaking empl...
Tom Arthur SNP
I am listening to the member’s remarks with interest. Does he recognise the argument that increased wages can drive up productivity by necessitating that fir...
Gordon Lindhurst Con
All these things are, of course, interlinked. It is not a simple matter of one leading to the other; there is a complex interplay between such factors, which...