Committee
Finance and Constitution Committee 27 February 2019
27 Feb 2019 · S5 · Finance and Constitution Committee
Item of business
Common Frameworks
Ian Davidson (Scottish Government)
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We have had discussed this a bit in previous committee sessions. It is not that those areas in their totality are subject to internal market arrangements; rather, it is that, in each of those areas—this potentially applies to any of the 153 areas of intersection—there are aspects of policy in which there may be internal market considerations and in which there may, indeed, be considerations drawn from other parts of the principles. 09:45 I do not have before me the detail of those aspects, but some obvious issues come up, such as approaches to, say, food safety. There will be discussion about the extent to which it is necessary or desirable to have consistent regulatory regimes and consistent standards and approaches as well as about where there might be legitimate scope for divergence and what the reasons for that divergence might be. I will tell you a small anecdote. When we had a discussion in one of our early food safety deep dives, we discovered that water is not simply water: there is spring water, Highland water and tap water, for example. Various types of water are all possible under the existing EU regulatory regime. There has been an awful lot of what I would call myth busting in those discussions so far, so that people understand the extent of the divergence that already exists within the EU regime and understand what that tells us about the future. It is no surprise that there is a general degree of anxiety about what the future of those arrangements would be on leaving the EU. There is a sense that, whatever divergence there is now, at least there is the comfort and certainty of an EU regulatory regime sitting behind it. The process has been about trying to get to the heart of those areas where we need certainty that the Administrations will co-operate with each other, and those arrangements are a subset of the issues that come up under those areas. However, it is a very long and complicated discussion, to be honest, and an awful lot remains in dispute, with discussions on-going between the Governments about where consistency is necessary or desirable. There are also concerns about the impact on agricultural subsidy in the future. The four Governments have different priorities in relation to agricultural support arrangements into the future, which are entirely legitimate and driven by the conditions of agriculture in the different nations. Although all Governments accept that each Administration should have its own approach to agricultural support that is based on the conditions in the country, there is an anxiety about how those approaches rub up against each other, the impact on producers in different parts of the United Kingdom and whether there could be claims of unfair competition or subsidy regimes disadvantaging others. Those are very complicated arrangements, but we have sought not to leap to the conclusion that uniformity should therefore be imposed across the UK, because that would be a significant backwards step from the current arrangements under the EU.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Bruce Crawford)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the fifth meeting in 2019 of the Finance and Constitution Committee. We have received apologies from Neil Bibby. I remind member...
The Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations (Michael Russell)
SNP
Thank you for the invitation to be here today, convener. This morning, Gill Glass reminded me that I last spoke to members of the committee about common fram...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, cabinet secretary. Judging from your voice, you are obviously carrying some sort of virus that is going round. I hope that you are okay through th...
Michael Russell
SNP
That has already happened. It started to happen in November, it accelerated in December, with the cancellation of the first meaningful vote, and it has conti...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
Good morning, cabinet secretary. You referred to the October 2017 framework for common frameworks, which was agreed by the JMC that month. That framework set...
Michael Russell
SNP
Yes, I can. I am not avoiding the question, but it is important, when referring to the framework, to mention principle 2 as well, which is: “Frameworks will...
Adam Tomkins
Con
Absolutely.
Michael Russell
SNP
If there was an issue between the two Governments here—which there might not be—I think that it would be the priority attached to those two issues—that is, w...
Adam Tomkins
Con
In relation to the specifics—although perhaps not in relation to the specifics of the manufacture of marmalade in Dundee—I understand that those discussions ...
Michael Russell
SNP
I want Ian Davidson to answer that, because he was at those sessions. As I indicated in my opening statement, any participation is without prejudice to the f...
Ian Davidson (Scottish Government)
We have had discussed this a bit in previous committee sessions. It is not that those areas in their totality are subject to internal market arrangements; ra...
Adam Tomkins
Con
Thank you. That is a very helpful answer, and I am grateful. I have two follow-up questions, which I hope will both be quick. The first is on the seven list...
Ian Davidson
They are a subset of the 24 areas that we prioritised. Beyond that, it is simply because there are established, well-working, functioning arrangements that h...
Adam Tomkins
Con
Secondly, what are the other issues? I presume that, if we were looking at this in 12 months’ time, the list of bullet points would be twice as long, or a bi...
Ian Davidson
Each of the 24 areas has had at least one stand-alone session, but the seven listed aspects have benefited from probably half a dozen stand-alone sessions, a...
Michael Russell
SNP
We have published the list of those 24 policy areas, so we are happy to have that list known.
The Convener
SNP
We have that already. I have a supplementary question. I am a simple person, so forgive me, but, given that those 12 areas and 24 other policy areas require ...
Michael Russell
SNP
That is an excellent question. I have no answer to it and nor does the UK Government. We have not seen statutory instruments that would give us the answer to...
Ian Davidson
I will add a couple of remarks. Members of the committee will be familiar with the no-deal legislative deficiencies work—the fixing regulations that have bee...
The Convener
SNP
That helps me to segue nicely into James Kelly, because he is interested in the areas where we cannot find agreement and there is dispute.
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
When legislative consent for the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill was being sought from the Scottish Parliament, one of the issues was dispute resolution. Th...
Michael Russell
SNP
That is a good point. At present, we rely on the memorandum of understanding on devolution, which, in order to avoid disputes, emphasises good communication ...
James Kelly
Lab
You said earlier that this is the first time that you have come before the committee since November, and you are telling us that the issues around intergover...
Michael Russell
SNP
We and the Welsh Government—Northern Ireland, regrettably, does not have a functioning Administration—believe that intergovernmental relations require urgent...
Angela Constance (Almond Valley) (SNP)
SNP
I will pick up on the issues around intergovernmental relationships and the mechanisms that support that. I heard with interest what you said about the work ...
Michael Russell
SNP
To some extent, we have that independent structure anyway, because, officials were tasked with taking the matter forward by the JMC plenary in—was it last su...
Ian Davidson
The preceding December.
Michael Russell
SNP
More than a year ago, officials were tasked with taking the matter forward, but it has not happened. However, the problem lies not with the civil service but...
Angela Constance
SNP
You say that politicians are the problem, as opposed to the civil service or Government structures. I assume that we would not want local government or stake...
Michael Russell
SNP
I am absolutely open to that. If those frameworks are, in the end, to be established—we are speculating about that because who knows what will happen tomorro...