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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 31 October 2018

31 Oct 2018 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Early Years

Thank you, Presiding Officer. You caught me slightly unawares there, as I was looking towards the Green Party benches for the next speaker, but there we are.

I start with the example of Archie, who went through his pre-school years depending totally on private sector childcare because both his parents work. One of them has the temerity to live on Shetland quite a lot of the time—although I am told that he redeemed himself this summer by taking Archie to Anfield for a pre-season game. My point is that the dependence that we, as parents, placed on the private sector was complete. I want to reflect that in recognising the Government’s ambitions for the delivery and expansion of childcare by saying that those are things that parents absolutely want. However, as members on both the Labour and Tory front benches have rightly said this afternoon, its approach needs to adapt to and recognise the scale of the challenges that exist not just in some but in all parts of Scotland.

One childcare provider who is in the private sector, which is essential to delivery in this area, wrote to me to say:

“There is no doubt that private nurseries are the poor relation when it comes to an equitable distribution of the significant Government funding to support the expansion of Early Years funded hours. Private nurseries are going to be squeezed as cash for capital works to improve”

local authority

“settings and to upskill their existing workforce takes place.”

That reflects remarks that have been made by members of other parties. The childcare provider went on to say:

“The private sector will struggle thereafter to retain our best staff, due to the lure of a better paid council job. The private nurseries in turn face a double whammy of”

local authorities

“insisting that any support they get is dependent on demonstrating they are a Living Wage employer ... whilst the hourly rate they pay to partner providers is below the operating cost threshold of the business.”

Those are serious and significant concerns that need to be ironed out by the Government as it progresses the matter. If they are not, the concern is about the hours that will be offered for nursery places. What we are talking about here is the 9 am to 3 pm slot, which suits some people. However, most working mums and dads might start before 9 o’clock in the morning and will certainly finish after 3 o’clock in the afternoon. That is why the other parts of the service will have to pick up those times, both before the start of what is broadly considered to be the normal working day and very much later into the evening. In my part of the world, there is a range of jobs in which people work way outside those hours—I know more people who start work at 7 in the morning and finish at lunch time, or who work later at the other end of the day, than I do people who work traditional office hours. Seeing that is essential to understanding and therefore to designing a system that takes into account the challenges of the modern working world that we are in—whether someone is a teacher, a fish processor, a worker in the hospitality industry or whatever.

I recognise that this is a huge challenge, and by no means am I diminishing or decrying the Government’s effort to get it right. However, accepting the points that have already been made about tackling the challenge of the landscape that is the modern working world will be essential in its redesign—or, if that is too strong a term, reconsideration—of what is currently not working. I also take Mary Fee’s point in her question about additional staff. Many of the Government’s own figures illustrate the depth of the problems there.

If I might finish with one other point, it is to say that it is for the Government to recognise what it is asking of local government and the entire range of organisations that provide childcare. Just last month, Highland Council said:

“to satisfy the government that we are delivering this programme of changes requires that any planning, monitoring, tracking, data gathering and financial reporting ... is becoming more complex and more detailed.”

I ask the Government, in responding to the debate, to recognise that there must be a happy balance somewhere when it comes to the necessity of auditing the use of public money and dealing with—

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-14521, in the name of Alison Harris, on early years. I ask those who wish to speak in the debate to press...
Alison Harris (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
The Scottish Conservatives are pleased to bring this debate to the Parliament today. The motion in my name addresses a few serious points that, thus far, hav...
The Minister for Children and Young People (Maree Todd) SNP
I would be more than happy to write to clarify the position. There is an issue around state aid in respect of local authorities providing capital funding dir...
Alison Harris Con
I would like the minister to do that straight away, please, because there is confusion. The fact that the minister mentioned one local authority although the...
The Minister for Children and Young People (Maree Todd) SNP
From August 2020, all three and four-year-olds and eligible two-year-olds will be entitled to 1,140 hours of high-quality early learning and childcare. Thous...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I totally accept the Scottish Government’s aims and ambitions, but does the minister recognise that one sector feels very disadvantaged in promoting the Gove...
Maree Todd SNP
Indeed, and I reiterate that this Government’s view is that the private sector will be crucial to our delivery of this ambition. I will update Parliament la...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
The minister rightly talks about the importance of standards and the necessity of paying people the real living wage. How does that square with the fact that...
Maree Todd SNP
The funding deal that we reached with COSLA in April secures the money that is required to ensure the delivery of the living wage commitment. That landmark £...
Liz Smith Con
The concern is that far too many local authorities are not engaging in such partnership working. Will the minister clarify—particularly in light of what some...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You will need to be quick, minister.
Maree Todd SNP
I do not agree that that is the case throughout the country. I agree that there are pockets of troublesome, difficult and challenging partnership relationshi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Come to a close, please.
Maree Todd SNP
We have heard providers’ concerns about sustainability, relationship difficulties, workforce challenges and the need to communicate clearly with parents and ...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I thank Alison Harris for lodging her motion for debate. Childcare is an important issue that impacts on the lives of thousands of families up and down the ...
Maree Todd SNP
There are 34,500 staff working in ELC across Scotland, 25,500 of whom are providing funded placements.
Mary Fee Lab
I thank the minister for that clarification. We know that 11,000 more childcare workers are needed by 2020. I appreciate that the minister has updated us on ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
Does Mary Fee accept that the funding arrangements that the Scottish Government has agreed with local authorities entirely address the issue about the rates ...
Mary Fee Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for that very helpful contribution and clarification. Confidence in the private sector about delivering the policy is plummeti...
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
I call Tavish Scott to open the debate for the Liberal Democrats. 16:14
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
Thank you, Presiding Officer. You caught me slightly unawares there, as I was looking towards the Green Party benches for the next speaker, but there we are....
John Swinney SNP
Will Mr Scott give way?
Tavish Scott LD
I will happily give way, but I would like to finish my point.
The Presiding Officer NPA
I am sorry, cabinet secretary, but Mr Scott will not be able to take an intervention. Perhaps the point could be covered in your closing remarks.
Tavish Scott LD
There must be a happy balance somewhere when it comes to the necessity of auditing the use of public money and dealing with the range of reporting that is no...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Thank you, Mr Scott. I apologise for not giving you notice that you were about to be called. There was no speaker for the Scottish Green Party this afternoon...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to contribute to today’s debate on what I believe is potentially one of the most important and far-reaching pieces of legislation c...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
Does the member recognise that we are in the pilot stage of the delivery and that, although some of the mechanisms used might not have been ideal, we want to...
Brian Whittle Con
The people Clare Adamson needs to speak to are those in the gallery who brought the issue to my attention. I think that 2020 will be too late and that ballot...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
There is no doubt that there is cross-party support for the transformation of free childcare to 1,140 hours. No one can argue that giving children the best-q...