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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 27 June 2018

27 Jun 2018 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Prescription (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Arthur, Tom SNP Renfrewshire South Watch on SPTV

I join colleagues across the chamber in paying tribute to Annabelle Ewing. I had the privilege of being the parliamentary liaison officer to Michael Matheson and her earlier in the parliamentary session. I wish her the very best and I congratulate him on his new post.

I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the bill at stage 1. As the bill originates in the work of the Scottish Law Commission, it is—naturally—more technical than many other matters that we debate in the chamber. Given that the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee was also appointed as the lead committee, the proposals that the bill contains are situated closer to the consensual end of the spectrum of political debate.

However, given the implications that the law of prescription has for a range of areas, the bill has provoked some broader questions, particularly on the recovery of debt by public bodies. The two areas of contention that emerged from the committee’s deliberations are reflected at paragraphs 111 and 144 of the committee’s stage 1 report and concern council tax and benefits respectively. I will focus my remarks on the issue of debt to local authorities.

Currently, the prescription period as it applies to council tax and non-domestic rates is uncertain. It is probable that the 20-year prescription period applies, but there is no decided case on the point that could offer more certainty, as has been noted. I believe that there is consensus in seeing the bill as an opportunity to bring clarity, but there is contention as to whether the period of prescription should be five or 20 years. Both the advocates of five years and those advocating 20 years have offered strong arguments.

Those who advocate a five-year prescription period include the Law Society of Scotland and Mike Dailly from the Govan Law Centre. The Law Society contends that a 20-year period is unfair. Its reasoning is set out in paragraph 86 of the committee report, which states that

“non-payment of council tax attracts a high penalty charge so that the value of the debt grows over time, and”

there are

“situations where people in good faith believe that they have paid their council tax yet are chased for the debt many years later, particularly in situations where joint and several liability applies.”

Mike Dailly argues that the position in Scotland should equate with that in England, where action to recover council tax debt must be initiated within six years. Mr Dailly offered a further nuance to his position by suggesting a compromise through having—I quote from paragraph 90—

“five year prescription with an exceptional circumstance test to establish whether there had been deliberate behaviour on behalf of the debtor to create delay in enforcing debt.”

Those who advocate retention of 20-year prescription include SOLAR and COSLA, although COSLA’s response to the committee had not been politically endorsed. Both organisations highlight the importance of local taxation to councils and the need for a legal regime that allows effective collection of debt. A further argument that the committee considered was on there being parity between local and national Government with regard to the prescribed period for debt recovery.

Although I am sympathetic to the arguments that have been made by the Law Society and Mike Dailly, I am not yet convinced that the bill that is under consideration today is the appropriate vehicle for delivering significant reform of local authority debt collection. There are three reasons that have led me to that view. First, there has so far been insufficient consultation with relevant stakeholders regarding the implications of any reform. However, as my colleague Stuart McMillan said, efforts have been undertaken in that regard.

Secondly, on a practical level, the process of council debt recovery is normally commenced swiftly, and the consequential issuance of a summary warrant creates, in effect, a 20-year prescription period. It should be noted that that compares favourably with the English equivalent—a liability order—which, as an instrument of English law, is indefinite due to the lack of prescription in that jurisdiction.

Thirdly, I believe that there is a risk of the bill going beyond its SLC-inspired remit and trespassing into policy areas that should be the concern of other committees in the Parliament beyond the DPLR Committee.

Time limits me from going into further detail on benefits, but I look forward to hearing the Government’s response to the issues that have been raised in the debate.

16:08  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-12958, in the name of Annabelle Ewing, on the Prescription (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. I call Joe FitzPat...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Alison Di Rollo, Solicitor General for Scotland, to speak to the motion. You have nine minutes, Solicitor General. 15:18
The Solicitor General for Scotland (Alison Di Rollo)
I am pleased to be here today on behalf of the Scottish Government to open the debate on the general principles of the Prescription (Scotland) Bill, which be...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I want to make progress at this stage, if that is all right. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities told the committee that it is rare for action to b...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I am going to press on for now. As well as the provisions that I have mentioned, the bill makes some miscellaneous provisions, which I want to mention brief...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, Solicitor General. I know that you are not used to this, but the motion has already been moved by Mr FitzPatrick.
The Solicitor General for Scotland
Sorry, Presiding Officer. That was corroboration. Laughter.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Oh, yes. I was all in favour of corroboration. It got me into a lot of trouble. Laughter. I call Graham Simpson to speak on behalf of the Delegated Powers ...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank Ms Di Rollo for stepping in today. One of the responsibilities of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee is to scrutinise Scottish Law Commis...
Alison Harris (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
First, I will simplify the meaning of “prescription”. Prescription and Scots law on prescription encourage people to enforce their rights swiftly, and before...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
In the light of the announced reshuffle of Government ministers, I begin by registering my thanks to Michael Matheson and Annabelle Ewing. Over the time that...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Like Daniel Johnson, I start by acknowledging the contribution that was made by the new justice secretary’s predecessor, Michael Matheson, and by Annabelle E...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to speak in the debate, and I place on record my thanks to Michael Matheson and Annabelle Ewing. In particular, I appreciate Annabelle Ewing’s...
Bill Bowman (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank my colleague Graham Simpson, the convener of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, and the committee clerks for their work on the bill. Havi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I would appreciate it if the last two speeches in the open debate came in at just under four minutes, please. 16:00
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
We welcome the bill. The new discoverability test, which requires a person to be aware that their loss, injury or damage was caused by a person’s act or omis...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
I join colleagues across the chamber in paying tribute to Annabelle Ewing. I had the privilege of being the parliamentary liaison officer to Michael Matheson...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the new ministers—although I think that they have left the chamber—and I thank the outgoing ministers for their public service. I thank the Solicit...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
In a debate of this nature, it may seem that my right to say anything interesting by this stage has been extinguished by prescription. Let me start by mentio...
Neil Findlay Lab
Has the member lifted Stewart Stevenson’s speech today?
Gordon Lindhurst Con
What can I say? I have been found out. No, not on this occasion, Mr Findlay. There is a need to balance the rights and obligations of creditors and debtors,...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I do not want to turn this into a mutual appreciation society, but I add my thanks and tributes to the outgoing justice ministers and the members of the DPLR...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Given that the situation is different south of the border, has any evidence been gathered on whether the six-year prescription period for local authorities i...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I do not think that such a comparative exercise has been done. The scope of the bill does not go that wide. As Tom Arthur mentioned, the purpose of the bill ...
Neil Findlay Lab
That might be the DWP’s position, but it would be highly unusual if it was the argument of Citizens Advice Scotland, the Govan Law Centre and the Child Pover...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
Mike Dailly and other consultees have expressed their views. This is a complex, nuanced matter on which there are different shades of opinion. However, there...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I must press on. I turn to an issue that Daniel Johnson and Tom Arthur mentioned, and of which Alison Harris gave a helpful explanation—discoverability and ...