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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 27 June 2018

27 Jun 2018 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Prescription (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Like Daniel Johnson, I start by acknowledging the contribution that was made by the new justice secretary’s predecessor, Michael Matheson, and by Annabelle Ewing. I am sure that the new justice secretary will have advised his predecessor that despite his move to the transport portfolio, he has not got rid of me yet, because I will beat a path to his door first on ferries and thereafter on many other issues. I look forward to working with Humza Yousaf in his new role.

I am conscious that unlike most colleagues in the chamber, except Daniel Johnson, I do not have the advantage of having listened to the stage 1 evidence. That is never ideal and—as Graham Simpson acknowledged—we are discussing a highly technical bill, so it makes me rather nervous. I am sure that the justice secretary feels that, too.

Nonetheless, having read the committee’s report—I pay tribute to the work that was done by the committee—and the many briefings from stakeholders, for which I am more than usually grateful, I wish to raise a small number of points in this brief contribution to the debate.

First, it is worth my while to confirm that the Scottish Liberal Democrats welcome the bill, which is a welcome attempt to modernise and to bring greater clarity to the law on prescription. It seems to be self-evident that establishing a cut-off point for claims to be raised or rights to be asserted has the advantage of providing certainty, so that individuals and businesses have some prospect of being able to organise their affairs and to plan for the future. Even prospective pursuers will benefit from the enforced discipline of making timely claims. The Law Society pointed out that

“many years after the fact, evidence will have deteriorated or disappeared and relevant individuals may no longer be traceable, or indeed have passed away.”

Although that does not preclude the possibility of unfairness arising in individual cases, the principle that underlies the bill appears to be sound.

I will touch on a couple of specifics. I note the lively debate around whether council tax and business rates should be exempt from the five-year prescription. In its briefing, the Law Society outlined half a dozen reasons why it believes that that is not justifiable and might produce unfair results. Although I think that councils, like others, should be required to do everything possible to pursue debts in a timely fashion, I struggle to accept that the 6 per cent penalty charge that attaches to unpaid council tax would act as a disincentive on the collecting council. I cannot see a council adopting a strategy, which is what it would have to be, to deliberately delay collections in order to rack up penalty charges. The Law Society seemed to acknowledge that, and it undermined its own argument when admitting that

“uncollected sums are quite small and if the council has not sought to enforce within 5 years, there may be little practical appetite to pursue them many years later.”

I have more sympathy with the concern of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities that introducing a five-year prescription would

“dis-incentivise payment and would lead to a decline in in-year collection.”

That said, I note that the committee was unable to reach an agreed position on that—I also note Daniel Johnson’s comments on the matter—and that the committee is looking for further rationale for the exception in advance of stage 2. That seems to be a sensible strategy. Like other members, I will look with interest at the forthcoming responses.

In relation to the discoverability test, the bill’s proposal to start the five-year period only when a pursuer knows that they have suffered a damage, injury or loss, that it was the fault of someone else by act or omission, and that they can identify that party, offers on balance more upsides than downsides, particularly for legal certainty.

I want to flag a concern that was highlighted by the Law Society, again, about the treatment of existing obligations that might be affected by the new law. In a bill that is aimed at delivering clarity, the confusion around claims that are prescribed under existing law but not under the new law is unhelpful. I hope that the Government will be able to address that at stage 2.

For now, I thank the committee and those who gave evidence, and confirm that the Scottish Liberal Democrats will support the bill at decision time.

15:51  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-12958, in the name of Annabelle Ewing, on the Prescription (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. I call Joe FitzPat...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Alison Di Rollo, Solicitor General for Scotland, to speak to the motion. You have nine minutes, Solicitor General. 15:18
The Solicitor General for Scotland (Alison Di Rollo)
I am pleased to be here today on behalf of the Scottish Government to open the debate on the general principles of the Prescription (Scotland) Bill, which be...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I want to make progress at this stage, if that is all right. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities told the committee that it is rare for action to b...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I am going to press on for now. As well as the provisions that I have mentioned, the bill makes some miscellaneous provisions, which I want to mention brief...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, Solicitor General. I know that you are not used to this, but the motion has already been moved by Mr FitzPatrick.
The Solicitor General for Scotland
Sorry, Presiding Officer. That was corroboration. Laughter.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Oh, yes. I was all in favour of corroboration. It got me into a lot of trouble. Laughter. I call Graham Simpson to speak on behalf of the Delegated Powers ...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank Ms Di Rollo for stepping in today. One of the responsibilities of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee is to scrutinise Scottish Law Commis...
Alison Harris (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
First, I will simplify the meaning of “prescription”. Prescription and Scots law on prescription encourage people to enforce their rights swiftly, and before...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
In the light of the announced reshuffle of Government ministers, I begin by registering my thanks to Michael Matheson and Annabelle Ewing. Over the time that...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Like Daniel Johnson, I start by acknowledging the contribution that was made by the new justice secretary’s predecessor, Michael Matheson, and by Annabelle E...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to speak in the debate, and I place on record my thanks to Michael Matheson and Annabelle Ewing. In particular, I appreciate Annabelle Ewing’s...
Bill Bowman (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank my colleague Graham Simpson, the convener of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, and the committee clerks for their work on the bill. Havi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I would appreciate it if the last two speeches in the open debate came in at just under four minutes, please. 16:00
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
We welcome the bill. The new discoverability test, which requires a person to be aware that their loss, injury or damage was caused by a person’s act or omis...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
I join colleagues across the chamber in paying tribute to Annabelle Ewing. I had the privilege of being the parliamentary liaison officer to Michael Matheson...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the new ministers—although I think that they have left the chamber—and I thank the outgoing ministers for their public service. I thank the Solicit...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
In a debate of this nature, it may seem that my right to say anything interesting by this stage has been extinguished by prescription. Let me start by mentio...
Neil Findlay Lab
Has the member lifted Stewart Stevenson’s speech today?
Gordon Lindhurst Con
What can I say? I have been found out. No, not on this occasion, Mr Findlay. There is a need to balance the rights and obligations of creditors and debtors,...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I do not want to turn this into a mutual appreciation society, but I add my thanks and tributes to the outgoing justice ministers and the members of the DPLR...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Given that the situation is different south of the border, has any evidence been gathered on whether the six-year prescription period for local authorities i...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I do not think that such a comparative exercise has been done. The scope of the bill does not go that wide. As Tom Arthur mentioned, the purpose of the bill ...
Neil Findlay Lab
That might be the DWP’s position, but it would be highly unusual if it was the argument of Citizens Advice Scotland, the Govan Law Centre and the Child Pover...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
Mike Dailly and other consultees have expressed their views. This is a complex, nuanced matter on which there are different shades of opinion. However, there...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I must press on. I turn to an issue that Daniel Johnson and Tom Arthur mentioned, and of which Alison Harris gave a helpful explanation—discoverability and ...