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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 27 June 2018

27 Jun 2018 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Prescription (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

In the light of the announced reshuffle of Government ministers, I begin by registering my thanks to Michael Matheson and Annabelle Ewing. Over the time that I have spent shadowing the justice brief, we have had some notable disagreements—on police governance, the British Transport Police merger and the repeal of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012—but there have also been some clear areas of constructive engagement on the broad issue of prison reform, on ensuring that the criminal justice system and the judicial system work and on the more specific circumstances around the Civil Litigation (Expenses and Group Proceedings) (Scotland) Bill. I thank both Michael Matheson and Annabelle Ewing and wish them luck in their new roles.

I also welcome Humza Yousaf—I am glad that he is here this afternoon on the front bench—and Ash Denham to their new positions, and look forward to engagement with them, be it constructive or, on occasion, critical, where that is needed.

I must admit that the Labour group was very excited to hear that there was going to be a debate this afternoon about prescription. Indeed, a queue lined up so that we could talk about medication, pharmacies and, on the 70th anniversary of the national health service, some very important health issues. When the truth was revealed about the debate, I am not sure that we had quite the same ease in filling the debate slots.

However, the issues around debt and the length of time for which it is reasonable to pursue debts are very important and have very real and human implications. We are therefore debating important issues this afternoon. In that regard, I thank the members and clerks of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee for the stage 1 report, which provides a useful basis for the debate; and I thank the organisations that provided briefings to inform the debate. I also thank the Scottish Law Commission, whose work prompted the bill’s introduction.

Prescription is a valuable principle in civil law that ensures that people who are aggrieved face a time limit for raising a claim in court, which is important because it encourages people to enforce their rights promptly. Without that, paper evidence could become lost, damaged or destroyed and witnesses might have died or become untraceable, or simply might not remember the facts of the case.

Above all, having no time limit might lead to people being pursued for debts for a length of time that anyone would consider to be unreasonable. It is against that principle that the bill seeks to reform prescription. I will focus my remarks on the discoverability test and the exceptions to the five-year period.

The discoverability test is used to determine when the prescriptive period starts. Recently, two important cases at the Supreme Court have altered interpretation of the test, one of which has already been mentioned in the debate—David T Morrison & Co Ltd v ICL Plastics Ltd and others. The other is Gordon and others v Campbell Riddell Breeze Paterson LLP, in 2017. Those rulings held that the five-year period started when the pursuer knew, or should reasonably have known, that the loss occurred, regardless of whether they knew that it had been caused by fault or negligence.

The bill changes that test to meet three conditions: that the pursuer knew that the loss had occurred, that they knew that the loss was caused by another person’s act or omission, and that they knew the identity of that person. Labour members believe that that is a reasonable and sensible compromise position that means that pursuers are not placed in a harsh situation in which their claim could be invalid before they even knew or had discovered that they had a claim.

There are two notable exceptions to the five-year prescription period, which members have acknowledged in the debate. Those exceptions are council tax and non-domestic rates. Other members might well have been contacted by constituents, as I have, about issues arising from council tax debt, when people are frustrated that councils that have failed to enforce actively a debt for several years suddenly come down on the debtor like a pile of bricks, even when the debtor had been paying what they thought was the correct amount for years. Citizens Advice Scotland told the committee that a five-year prescription period would force all creditors actively to pursue and enforce their debt, which would perhaps put off the need for such things as sequestration by councils.

We should not let policy be led by the inability of councils to enforce debts, nor should the law encourage in councils and public bodies inefficiency in actively pursuing those debts.

The Government’s argument is that the exception retains the status quo, but that does not persuade me or my Labour colleagues. The bill, unsurprisingly, is about changing the status quo where necessary, so the justification to exempt council tax and business rates should be based on the merits of the case, not on the basis that it has always been so.

Prescription is an important principle that is in need of reform. We are happy to support the bill at stage 1, but Labour members look forward to further debate and to seeing how it can be improved at future stages.

15:47  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-12958, in the name of Annabelle Ewing, on the Prescription (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. I call Joe FitzPat...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Alison Di Rollo, Solicitor General for Scotland, to speak to the motion. You have nine minutes, Solicitor General. 15:18
The Solicitor General for Scotland (Alison Di Rollo)
I am pleased to be here today on behalf of the Scottish Government to open the debate on the general principles of the Prescription (Scotland) Bill, which be...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I want to make progress at this stage, if that is all right. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities told the committee that it is rare for action to b...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I am going to press on for now. As well as the provisions that I have mentioned, the bill makes some miscellaneous provisions, which I want to mention brief...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, Solicitor General. I know that you are not used to this, but the motion has already been moved by Mr FitzPatrick.
The Solicitor General for Scotland
Sorry, Presiding Officer. That was corroboration. Laughter.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Oh, yes. I was all in favour of corroboration. It got me into a lot of trouble. Laughter. I call Graham Simpson to speak on behalf of the Delegated Powers ...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank Ms Di Rollo for stepping in today. One of the responsibilities of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee is to scrutinise Scottish Law Commis...
Alison Harris (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
First, I will simplify the meaning of “prescription”. Prescription and Scots law on prescription encourage people to enforce their rights swiftly, and before...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
In the light of the announced reshuffle of Government ministers, I begin by registering my thanks to Michael Matheson and Annabelle Ewing. Over the time that...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Like Daniel Johnson, I start by acknowledging the contribution that was made by the new justice secretary’s predecessor, Michael Matheson, and by Annabelle E...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to speak in the debate, and I place on record my thanks to Michael Matheson and Annabelle Ewing. In particular, I appreciate Annabelle Ewing’s...
Bill Bowman (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank my colleague Graham Simpson, the convener of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, and the committee clerks for their work on the bill. Havi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I would appreciate it if the last two speeches in the open debate came in at just under four minutes, please. 16:00
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
We welcome the bill. The new discoverability test, which requires a person to be aware that their loss, injury or damage was caused by a person’s act or omis...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
I join colleagues across the chamber in paying tribute to Annabelle Ewing. I had the privilege of being the parliamentary liaison officer to Michael Matheson...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the new ministers—although I think that they have left the chamber—and I thank the outgoing ministers for their public service. I thank the Solicit...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
In a debate of this nature, it may seem that my right to say anything interesting by this stage has been extinguished by prescription. Let me start by mentio...
Neil Findlay Lab
Has the member lifted Stewart Stevenson’s speech today?
Gordon Lindhurst Con
What can I say? I have been found out. No, not on this occasion, Mr Findlay. There is a need to balance the rights and obligations of creditors and debtors,...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I do not want to turn this into a mutual appreciation society, but I add my thanks and tributes to the outgoing justice ministers and the members of the DPLR...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Given that the situation is different south of the border, has any evidence been gathered on whether the six-year prescription period for local authorities i...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I do not think that such a comparative exercise has been done. The scope of the bill does not go that wide. As Tom Arthur mentioned, the purpose of the bill ...
Neil Findlay Lab
That might be the DWP’s position, but it would be highly unusual if it was the argument of Citizens Advice Scotland, the Govan Law Centre and the Child Pover...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
Mike Dailly and other consultees have expressed their views. This is a complex, nuanced matter on which there are different shades of opinion. However, there...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I must press on. I turn to an issue that Daniel Johnson and Tom Arthur mentioned, and of which Alison Harris gave a helpful explanation—discoverability and ...