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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 27 June 2018

27 Jun 2018 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Prescription (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Bowman, Bill Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I thank my colleague Graham Simpson, the convener of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, and the committee clerks for their work on the bill. Having substituted on the committee for my colleague Alison Harris while the bill was being discussed, I am grateful to be able to add my voice today.

The bill enjoys support inside and outwith the Parliament, and the convener recognises the general contentment among stakeholders. The Law Society of Scotland summed the bill up by noting that it would modernise and bring greater clarity to our law of prescription.

It will do so through a series of changes to the five-year and 20-year prescription periods. It is not an attempt at wholesale reform but rather aims to address specific issues that have caused, or might cause, difficulty in practice. More fundamentally, it aims to bring clarity, certainty and fairness while balancing the law between creditors and debtors.

With that in mind, the committee has recognised the need to address various issues before the bill reaches stage 2, such as cases involving council tax, benefit overpayments and situations in which 20-year prescription can mean harsh results for individual cases.

The committee was split on whether council tax should be exempt from the five-year rule. The disagreement came down to balancing perceptions of fairness with public policy. No one wants to see individuals treated unfairly, but we have a public duty to treat taxpayers fairly by recovering their money, because that serves a wider public good. I hope that the issue receives the attention and review that it deserves as the bill progresses.

That process is already under way. The committee will write to local authorities to ascertain how many still have council tax and business rates debts outstanding after five years and how often payment has been sought using the 20-year prescription. I welcome that engagement, but we must ensure that the process is kept on track and that responses are acted on.

In a similar vein, more discussion is needed about whether overpayment of benefits should be subject to five-year or 20-year prescription. Avoiding overpayments is the best solution, but, when it happens, there is again the question of fairness versus the wider public good. Some people regard 20 years as too long, but, to paraphrase a clever man, time is relative. Public finances do not obey neat demarcations of time and we must retain flexibility in safeguarding public money.

On the 20-year rule, there will always be a need for longer prescription periods, even though we recognise the problems that they can create, such as with gathering evidence after a number of years. The bill balances that necessity by strengthening the hand of defenders through much earlier prescription starting points in many cases and by preventing court proceedings from resetting the clock on the 20-year period. That measure, in particular, is a welcome boost, as it offers greater certainty to defenders.

Certainty is a fundamental point. People must be able to live their lives without fear that they will be open to lawsuits for evermore. Even if individual cases might throw up some unwelcome developments, there is a wider public interest in legal certainty that must be served. Of course, as the Law Society points out, individual cases can also be better served by claimants taking early action.

People have a right to claim what is lawfully theirs, but they also have a right not to be dragged through the courts to settle decades-old debts. The reforms before us help achieve that through increased clarity and better balance between parties. However, as we move towards stage 2, I hope that ministers will pay heed to the concerns that have been raised by the committee and will seek to address them in a manner that carries the Parliament with them. That will allow the bill to continue to focus on the substantive issues and ensure the continuation of the broad support that we see here today.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-12958, in the name of Annabelle Ewing, on the Prescription (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. I call Joe FitzPat...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Alison Di Rollo, Solicitor General for Scotland, to speak to the motion. You have nine minutes, Solicitor General. 15:18
The Solicitor General for Scotland (Alison Di Rollo)
I am pleased to be here today on behalf of the Scottish Government to open the debate on the general principles of the Prescription (Scotland) Bill, which be...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I want to make progress at this stage, if that is all right. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities told the committee that it is rare for action to b...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I am going to press on for now. As well as the provisions that I have mentioned, the bill makes some miscellaneous provisions, which I want to mention brief...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, Solicitor General. I know that you are not used to this, but the motion has already been moved by Mr FitzPatrick.
The Solicitor General for Scotland
Sorry, Presiding Officer. That was corroboration. Laughter.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Oh, yes. I was all in favour of corroboration. It got me into a lot of trouble. Laughter. I call Graham Simpson to speak on behalf of the Delegated Powers ...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank Ms Di Rollo for stepping in today. One of the responsibilities of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee is to scrutinise Scottish Law Commis...
Alison Harris (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
First, I will simplify the meaning of “prescription”. Prescription and Scots law on prescription encourage people to enforce their rights swiftly, and before...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
In the light of the announced reshuffle of Government ministers, I begin by registering my thanks to Michael Matheson and Annabelle Ewing. Over the time that...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Like Daniel Johnson, I start by acknowledging the contribution that was made by the new justice secretary’s predecessor, Michael Matheson, and by Annabelle E...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to speak in the debate, and I place on record my thanks to Michael Matheson and Annabelle Ewing. In particular, I appreciate Annabelle Ewing’s...
Bill Bowman (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank my colleague Graham Simpson, the convener of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, and the committee clerks for their work on the bill. Havi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I would appreciate it if the last two speeches in the open debate came in at just under four minutes, please. 16:00
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
We welcome the bill. The new discoverability test, which requires a person to be aware that their loss, injury or damage was caused by a person’s act or omis...
Tom Arthur (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) SNP
I join colleagues across the chamber in paying tribute to Annabelle Ewing. I had the privilege of being the parliamentary liaison officer to Michael Matheson...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the new ministers—although I think that they have left the chamber—and I thank the outgoing ministers for their public service. I thank the Solicit...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
In a debate of this nature, it may seem that my right to say anything interesting by this stage has been extinguished by prescription. Let me start by mentio...
Neil Findlay Lab
Has the member lifted Stewart Stevenson’s speech today?
Gordon Lindhurst Con
What can I say? I have been found out. No, not on this occasion, Mr Findlay. There is a need to balance the rights and obligations of creditors and debtors,...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I do not want to turn this into a mutual appreciation society, but I add my thanks and tributes to the outgoing justice ministers and the members of the DPLR...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Given that the situation is different south of the border, has any evidence been gathered on whether the six-year prescription period for local authorities i...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I do not think that such a comparative exercise has been done. The scope of the bill does not go that wide. As Tom Arthur mentioned, the purpose of the bill ...
Neil Findlay Lab
That might be the DWP’s position, but it would be highly unusual if it was the argument of Citizens Advice Scotland, the Govan Law Centre and the Child Pover...
The Solicitor General for Scotland
Mike Dailly and other consultees have expressed their views. This is a complex, nuanced matter on which there are different shades of opinion. However, there...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention?
The Solicitor General for Scotland
I must press on. I turn to an issue that Daniel Johnson and Tom Arthur mentioned, and of which Alison Harris gave a helpful explanation—discoverability and ...